Most drastically improved position in all of sports over 20 years?NHL goalies!

**ryanspeer2001** · 03-30-09, 11:07 PM

Wihtout thinking too much about it right now I have to agree with this whole-heartedly. The only other positions that I have seen make changes is a large size increase in OT's in football which has helped protect offense players a bit better and the evolution of the RB position where the backs are no longer there primarily for gut running or juking but act as a versatle target as a runner, reciever, blocker and all together playmaker.

**Nicky Santoro** · 03-31-09, 12:08 AM

reason is goalies today are much bigger, they cover more of the net. they are in better condition..their equipment is twice the size as it was in the 70's, and the defence is better, too.

goalies back then were 6'1, 168 lbs and tall and lanky with very little equipment and not much D in front of them

today, they are 6'2, 209 lbs, built like steel, with lots of equipment that covers the net and great D in front of them.

**ryanspeer2001** · 03-31-09, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by Nicky Santoro

reason is goalies today are much bigger, they cover more of the net. they are in better condition..their equipment is twice the size as it was in the 70's, and the defence is better, too.

goalies back then were 6'1, 168 lbs and tall and lanky with very little equipment and not much D in front of them

today, they are 6'2, 209 lbs, built like steel, with lots of equipment that covers the net and great D in front of them.

Pardon my ignorance on the subject but aren't the pad sizes very similar to the way they were back then? I know there are limits to the size of the pads now but how different are they to pads of 20-30 years ago.

**Nicky Santoro** · 03-31-09, 12:54 AM

pads are much thicker and wider.. pads back then were thin and narrow.. and also they wear much more equipment now.. the pads and all are stacked now as compared to 1971.

**AgainstAllOdds** · 03-31-09, 12:57 AM

I thought totals have been up this year?

**pico** · 03-31-09, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by AgainstAllOdds

I thought totals have been up this year?

power plays

**ryanspeer2001** · 03-31-09, 01:04 AM

Back before they changed the OT and shootout rules what were the totals for games?

Also anyone remember totals' averages from the 80's? Higher/Lower?

**Nicky Santoro** · 03-31-09, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by ryanspeer2001

Back before they changed the OT and shootout rules what were the totals for games?

Also anyone remember totals' averages from the 80's? Higher/Lower?

from 85 till about 92, totals ranged from 6.5 to 11.. most games were 10.5, 9.5, 8.5, 7.5, believe it or not.. and there was NO OT.. just tie games. every time Pit played with mario lemieux in the late 80's or early 90's, totals were always 10.5 ov -135, etc... especially when they played teams like NYI, or Quebec Nordiques.. and those games always ended 9-4, 8-6, etc..

and in mid 80's when EDM played, most totals with Gretzky in the game were 10.5 flat, and EDM alone would put the game over by winning a lot of 11-2 games

**cobra_king** · 03-31-09, 01:09 AM

You'd get totals regularily at 7 and 7.5 in the 80's and early 90's. They never were at 10 or 11.

**ryanspeer2001** · 03-31-09, 01:12 AM

Nicky and Cobra thank you.

I would have loved to be old enough to see some of those high scoring games I've heard about. It amazes me when I look back at some of Gretzkys single season stats how exciting it must have been for hockey fans to see him play.

**cobra_king** · 03-31-09, 01:14 AM

The 80's and early 90's were the best of times in the NHL. Leagues never want dynasties, but dynasties are what makes the games interesting. Montreal late 70's, Islanders and Oilers in the 80's....and Pittsburgh should have been one in the early 90's but were a dominant team that caught some bad luck along the way. It sure made hockey fun.

**ryanspeer2001** · 03-31-09, 01:16 AM

Hockey was the first sport I got into watching when I was a young kid at 5-6 years old so were talking 91-92 here. I followed the Flyers as they were my home town team and even then I loved watching them play NY Rangers and Penguins since it was fun to watch Lemieux and Messier.

**Nicky Santoro** · 03-31-09, 01:19 AM

mario was the greatest hockey player that ever lived.. that's right, even better than the Great One, wayne gretzky. when i have time one day, i will explain why super mario was the greatest of all time, but i do have to sleep now and it's 220 am..

boy was mario great. .too bad he wasn't ever healthy like wayne gretzky and was brought up in his career playing with messier and coffey and kurri in edm instead of the cellar dwellers pittsburgh penguins, or he would be the named the great one.

**ryanspeer2001** · 03-31-09, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by Nicky Santoro

mario was the greatest hockey player that ever lived.. that's right, even better than the Great One, wayne gretzky. when i have time one day, i will explain why super mario was the greatest of all time, but i do have to sleep now and it's 220 am..

boy was mario great. .too bad he wasn't ever healthy like wayne gretzky and was brought up in his career playing with messier and coffey and kurri in edm instead of the cellar dwellers pittsburgh penguins, or he would be the named the great one.

Let me know when you write this up I'm interested.

**SlickFazzer** · 03-31-09, 01:22 AM

**Nicky Santoro** · 03-31-09, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by SlickFazzer

that went down as the worst piece of hockey i have ever witnessed in my whole entire life..

you could easily tell that jj has never played a day of hockey in his life or even held a hockey stick.. you'd have to be canadian to understand what i just saw there.

it is the exact equivalence of a guy holding a basketball with 2 hands and jumping in the air 4 feet with both his feet and screaming at same time, while shooting a free throw.. and then saying that is how you make a free throw or throw a basketball.

that's how it looked watching jj trying to show us how to play hockey in that vid..

**cobra_king** · 03-31-09, 01:27 AM

I can give credence to the argument that Mario was better than Gretzky, though i still believe that Gretzky was the best. However, for pure skill with the puck, i'll grant that Mario is hands down the best. Where Gretzky excelled was in seeing the entire ice surface and knowing exactly where to go, or where to send the pass to the inevitably open player. The old saying is that a cement truck could score 50 with Gretzky as his centerman and it's pretty damn close to being true. Mario on the other hand was the best one on one player of his or any generation. The guy never barely missed on breakaways, and would turn defencemen inside out with great regularity. The classic one being Ray Bourque early in his career. If you can find that one, (maybe youtube has it) it's pure entertainment.

**Nicky Santoro** · 03-31-09, 01:34 AM

Originally posted by cobra_king

I can give credence to the argument that Mario was better than Gretzky, though i still believe that Gretzky was the best. However, for pure skill with the puck, i'll grant that Mario is hands down the best. Where Gretzky excelled was in seeing the entire ice surface and knowing exactly where to go, or where to send the pass to the inevitably open player. The old saying is that a cement truck could score 50 with Gretzky as his centerman and it's pretty damn close to being true. Mario on the other hand was the best one on one player of his or any generation. The guy never barely missed on breakaways, and would turn defencemen inside out with great regularity. The classic one being Ray Bourque early in his career. If you can find that one, (maybe youtube has it) it's pure entertainment.

mario one on one with ray bourque was mario's 1st ever career nhl goal.. mario also was a great passer. his feather passes between 2 skate blades of 2 diff players right on the wings stick and score were great. he was a much better passer than wayne.. he had an incredible long reach and controlled the game and power play better than wayne.. give mario coffey, messier, anderson, and kurri throughout his career instead of stevens, cullen, recchi and jagr and let mario play two times as many games as gretzky, like gretzky did over mario. mario went to pitts when pitts was a dead franchise and won them back to back cups right away.. let mario never be sick with cancer or back pains ever.. let mario play in the high scoring western conference and leave wayne with the last place pens for many yrs and lets see who would have been the better player.. even with all the injuries and shit teams, mario did still avg more pts per game till the end of his career.

ryan speer, i just gave it to you.. there you go.. i wish i can give you more reasons, but i do have to go to bed. gotta wake up early.

mario was the way way better player, sorry boys.. if you dont agree, then you dont know hockey.

**tullamore** · 03-31-09, 01:36 AM

I was never much of a Lemieux fan, mostly because I hated the Penguins and Ulf for his hit on Neely. But looking back Lemieux was one hell of talent, and could do thing with the puck that were unbelievable. Who knows what his career whould of been like if he could have stayed healthy? Nicky is lucky the Islanders upset the Pengiuns in 1993 or Montreal would have never won the Cup.

**tullamore** · 03-31-09, 01:41 AM

Originally posted by Nicky Santoro

mario one on one with ray bourque was mario's 1st ever career nhl goal..

Mario's first shot in the NHl was goal.

**cobra_king** · 03-31-09, 01:44 AM

First, the argument that mario had more ppg until the end of his career is irrelevant. If you are going to take off Mario's last few years than you would have to take off Gretzky's Ranger years as well which would still put Gretzky ahead of Mario.

Secondly, you are talking like Pittsburgh of that era are akin to the Islanders of today. This team won two cups with the aforementioned crew. His best years came with Jagr, Ron Francis, the same Paul Coffey and Kevin Stevens on his team. 2 members of the hall of fame and one future one with Jagr..... and Stevens might have been there if he didn't get face planted in the 93 playoffs and never recovered from it. This team wasn't quite as good as the Oiler teams but they were pretty close. So saying he didn't play with greatness is ridiculous.

Mario also didn't win two cups right away, he was drafted in 1984 and they didn't win a cup till 1991, hardly what i would call right away.

The only part of the argument that holds up is his injuries and illness. They certainly kept his overall numbers down there is no doubt about that and it's a shame he didn't get a full career. As i said, i can give credence to the argument that Mario was the best, but the arguments given above are not the reason why.

**tullamore** · 03-31-09, 01:48 AM

@ 1:10, I think is the goal that Cobra is talking about against Bourque

**tullamore** · 03-31-09, 01:49 AM

.

**cobra_king** · 03-31-09, 01:59 AM

Yup tullamore that's the one, which btw was not his first NHL goal contrary to what was posted above. I wish they showed the angle from behind the Boston net, this angle doesn't do it total justice.

**yisman** · 03-31-09, 02:01 AM

Super Mario is the GOAT.

Main reason goalies are so much better: butterfly style

it's also been the cause of a lot of hip injuries among goalies.

**yisman** · 03-31-09, 02:02 AM

nicky, you mention a bunch of BS and no mention of the butterfly style? It's the #1 reason.

**tullamore** · 03-31-09, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by cobra_king

Yup tullamore that's the one, which btw was not his first NHL goal contrary to what was posted above. I wish they showed the angle from behind the Boston net, this angle doesn't do it total justice.

His first goal was the first video I posted, he also beat Bourque in that one too.

**cobra_king** · 03-31-09, 02:05 AM

Ya i saw that video.....just pointing out that the classic Mario vs. Bourque goal was not his first NHL goal.

Bourque must have had nightmares of Mario after some of those games he played against him.

**cobra_king** · 03-31-09, 02:09 AM

And back to the topic on hand......the butterfly style is the main reason as Yisman stated, but with the butterfly style it dawned a new era of equipment which has gone hand in hand with making the goalies that much better. No goalie could survive playing the butterfly style in this day and age without the bulky upper body protection. So in the end, not only was the technique improved somewhat, the equipment was also improved to protect the goalies as well. Unfortunately it has gone from just protecting the goalie to covering way to much of the net as well.

Of course the funny thing is, Martin Brodeur may go down as the best of all time, and in the butterfly era he is one of the few that doesn't play that way, yet nobody seems to copy his style.

**yisman** · 03-31-09, 02:15 AM

Brodeur occasionally mixes in some butterfly. It's not easy to copy his style and young goalies are taught the butterfly.

**cobra_king** · 03-31-09, 02:18 AM

The one problem with the butterfly, aside from the strain it puts on your hips, is that some have taken it to far and basically play the game on their knees. The worst i ever saw at this was J.S. Aubin. Jonas Hiller is also of that ilk but so far this season has been able to get away with it. Carey Price on the other hand, has not been able to get away with playing on his knees 90% of the time.

**VegasDave** · 03-31-09, 02:53 AM

Yisman is right.

Larger pads certainly contribute as Nicky pointed out, but goaltenders being much more positionally sound and butterflying has a lot more to do with it. Patrick Roy revolutionized the game with the butterfly technique... he may not have invented it, but he certainly was the goaltender that every young goalie coming up in the early 90s thrived to be, along with Brodeur in the later stages.