DeMar DeRozan

**thomorino** · 02-25-22, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by stevenash

This is why he's saying Jokic is Most Valuable Player.

With Jokic, Denver is the most dominant team (and he proves it out) in the NBA, without Jokic, Denver is the Detroit Pistons.

The very essence of the word 'valuable'

When Jokic isn’t on the court, the Nuggets get outscored by 10.6 points per 100 possessions. Detroit has the worst net rating in the NBA at minus-10.0 per 100 possessions. So, the Nuggets with Jokic are the most dominant team in the NBA, and the Nuggets without Jokic are the most dominated team in the NBA this season. That sounds like the most value to me.

Again, Embiid has the far harder strength of schedule playing in the East, and he's still better and more valuable. Which is why his team has a better record.

**stevenash** · 02-25-22, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by thomorino

Again, Embiid has the far harder strength of schedule playing in the East, and he's still better and more valuable. Which is why his team has a better record.

You're totally missing the point.
Carry on.

**d2bets** · 02-25-22, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by stevenash

This is why he's saying Jokic is Most Valuable Player.

With Jokic, Denver is the most dominant team (and he proves it out) in the NBA, without Jokic, Denver is the Detroit Pistons.

The very essence of the word 'valuable'

When Jokic isn’t on the court, the Nuggets get outscored by 10.6 points per 100 possessions. Detroit has the worst net rating in the NBA at minus-10.0 per 100 possessions. So, the Nuggets with Jokic are the most dominant team in the NBA, and the Nuggets without Jokic are the most dominated team in the NBA this season. That sounds like the most value to me.

That is certainly eye-opening, although it is possible that there are other factors that don't make it a direct correlation. Like, let's say for example Denver rotates units such that when Jokic sits all of the other starters sit with him and it's a full second unit. So you'd have to do an analysis that controls for other factors as well. That said, my hunch is that his value would still hold fairly well.

I bet this would have been a useful live betting device. Like hammer the opponent live when Jokic sits and then bet Denver when he enters the game. I doubt the live odds could adequately account for this if it does turn Denver from horrible to great and vice versa.

**chargers4222** · 02-25-22, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by thomorino

Derozean will get exposed as always in the playoffs, Bulls have zero chance to get out of the 2nd round unless their are major injuries.

there*

**thomorino** · 02-25-22, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by chargers4222

there*

Chargers should be capitalized

**d2bets** · 02-25-22, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by thomorino

Chargers should be capitalized

Should thomorino be capitalized?

As to injuries, the Bulls will quite likely be in the ECF IF they get fully healthy. Bulls have had as much injuries as anyone and yet they are in first place.

**thomorino** · 02-25-22, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by d2bets

Should thomorino be capitalized?

As to injuries, the Bulls will quite likely be in the ECF IF they get fully healthy. Bulls have had as much injuries as anyone and yet they are in first place.

The Bulls have zero chance of getting to the conference finals, I'll make a loser leaves the forum forever bet with you that hey don't get there.

The Bulls are not built for the postseason and aren't even a top 3, let alone, top 2 team.

Vucevic will get destroyed in pick and rolls on the perimeter against smaller teams late in games, Derozean plays no defense, Derozean also gets exposed in the playoffs since he's not a playmaker.

Milwaukee will put Giannis on Derozean and the Bulls are done, Brooklyn will put Durant on Derozean the Bulls are done.

Bulls have zero chance to make the conference finals unless there are major injuries.

**thomorino** · 02-25-22, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by stevenash

You're totally missing the point.
Carry on.

The East shits on the West in every possible way this year, Embiid's strength of schedule is far stronger than Jokic's, and he's still better and more valuable.

**chargers4222** · 02-25-22, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by thomorino

He's playing Sacramento. And again, he's playing no defense as usual, which is one of the reasons he's not on Embiid's level.

Sabonis is shooting almost 80% from the floor against him.

**thomorino** · 02-25-22, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by chargers4222

One play doesn't make a career.

**stevenash** · 02-25-22, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by d2bets

That is certainly eye-opening, although it is possible that there are other factors that don't make it a direct correlation. Like, let's say for example Denver rotates units such that when Jokic sits all of the other starters sit with him and it's a full second unit. So you'd have to do an analysis that controls for other factors as well. That said, my hunch is that his value would still hold fairly well.

I bet this would have been a useful live betting device. Like hammer the opponent live when Jokic sits and then bet Denver when he enters the game. I doubt the live odds could adequately account for this if it does turn Denver from horrible to great and vice versa.

I watch Denver every chance I get.
He's one of the greatest of this generation.

His rotation never changes, unless it's a blow out.
If you want to fade Denver live, do this.

Under normal game conditions Malone plays him exactly 34 minutes a game, every game.
This is how Malone runs him, Jokic will get the first ten minutes of the first quarter, then he'll reenter with seven minutes left in the second quarter.

Same process in the 2H
He'll get 17 minutes again.
First ten minutes of the 3Q, and the final seven minutes of the game.
34 total minutes.

So, you can always count on Jokic off the floor from 2:00 left in 1Q to 7:00 left in 2Q
2:00 left in 3Q to 7:00 left in the game.

That's when you go from +10 to -10.
And I'm going to teat that theory next Nuggets game

Here's his last five games.
Embid wishes he can put up those numbers on a nightly basis.
My God! Look at that consistency.

G	Date	Tm		Opp		MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	FT	FTA	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	PTS
49	2/11/2022	DEN	@	BOS	L (-6)	34:21:00	9	20	0.45	3	10	2	4	16	11	0	2	23
50	2/12/2022	DEN	@	TOR	W (+1)	34:59:00	10	16	0.625	0	2	8	10	15	6	0	2	28
51	2/14/2022	DEN		ORL	W (+10)	34:48:00	10	26	0.385	3	9	3	3	15	7	1	0	26
52	2/16/2022	DEN	@	GSW	W (+1)	34:21:00	13	24	0.542	3	5	6	9	17	8	1	0	35
53	2/24/2022	DEN	@	SAC	W (+18)	34:21:00	9	15	0.6	2	4	5	7	12	9	4	1	25

**d2bets** · 02-25-22, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by thomorino

One play doesn't make a career.

**IBetYou** · 02-25-22, 01:25 PM

When it comes to paint protection you have Embiid & Gobert and then everyone else.

Never the less Jokic is actually a very good defender these days. Great communicator, strong base, long arms. Marc Gasol had these traits also and it got him DPOY twice.

**Wrongside** · 02-25-22, 01:37 PM

Embid shouldn’t get it

**stevenash** · 02-25-22, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by IBetYou

When it comes to paint protection you have Embiid & Gobert and then everyone else.

Never the less Jokic is actually a very good defender these days. Great communicator, strong base, long arms. Marc Gasol had these traits also and it got him DPOY twice.

Jokic's defensive metrics are actually better than Embid this season.

Rebound percentage
1.Drummond
2.Gobert
3.Jokic

Embid not even top ten.

Defense Rebound percentage
1.Drummond
2.Jokic
3.Gobert

8.Embid

Player Impact Rating
1.Jokic
2-10 Everybody else

Look these up, all these metrics are out there.

Here's your defensive dashboard for centers.
1. Gobert
2. Jokic
3. Vucevic
4. Poetti
5. Embid

Enough talk, hands down Gobert is the best defensive center in the world, andhe has the hardware to prove it.
And this season, Jokic is second.

Here's the dashboard.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall/

**thomorino** · 02-25-22, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by IBetYou

When it comes to paint protection you have Embiid & Gobert and then everyone else.

Never the less Jokic is actually a very good defender these days. Great communicator, strong base, long arms. Marc Gasol had these traits also and it got him DPOY twice.

He doesn't understand basketball, he just uses formulas that don't work in the real world. Embiid is an 3 time all-defensive player, Jokic will never come close making a single all defensive-team.

**stevenash** · 02-25-22, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by thomorino

He doesn't understand basketball, he just uses formulas that don't work in the real world. Embiid is an 3 time all-defensive player, Jokic will never come close making a single all defensive-team.

Based on what facts?
I see the real world, Embid can't do what Jokic does except score.
Since you don't understand logic, we agree to disagree, and leave at that.
No matter how many facts I provide, you're not going to back down off your stance.

**stevenash** · 02-25-22, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by thomorino

Embiid is an 3 time all-defensive player

Are you trying to tell me Embid is a top three all time defensive center?
And you say I don't understand basketball?

Gobert has won defensive player of the year award three out of the past four seasons.
Embid doesn't even three healthy seasons played yet.
And the year Gobert didn't win it, Giannis did.

Mutombo has won four defensive player of the years awards.
Dwight Howard did it three times, defensive player of the year.
Olajowaon twice.

I just named four.

That's before we even get into the all time greats, like Russell.

And I don't understand basketball.

**thomorino** · 02-25-22, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by stevenash

Are you trying to tell me Embid is a top three all time defensive center?
And you say I don't understand basketball?

Gobert has won defensive player of the year award three out of the past four seasons.
Embid doesn't even three healthy seasons played yet.
And the year Gobert didn't win it, Giannis did.

Mutombo has won four defensive player of the years awards.
Dwight Howard did it three times, defensive player of the year.
Olajowaon twice.

I just named four.

That's before we even get into the all time greats, like Russell.

And I don't understand basketball.

Embiid has been on an all-defensive team 3 times. Jokic zero.

And Embiid is till young, so comparing him to the other players makes no sense.

**stevenash** · 02-25-22, 05:13 PM

Second team.

I'm talking defensive player of the year.

You seriously believe Embid is better than Gober on defense?
And Jokic is having a better season on defense this year.

**thomorino** · 02-25-22, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by stevenash

Second team.

I'm talking defensive player of the year.

You seriously believe Embid is better than Gober on defense?
And Jokic is having a better season on defense this year.

I wasn't comparing Embiid to Gobert, but Gobert can't guard on the perimeter and he gets exposed in the playoffs every year, Embiid is a far better defender than Jokic, and better player overall.

**thomorino** · 02-25-22, 10:31 PM

Embiid with 34 points, 10 rebounds, and he was +25 because he dominated defense

He's the best player in the NBA.

**stevenash** · 02-25-22, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by thomorino

Embiid with 34 points, 10 rebounds, and he was +25 because he dominated defense

He's the best player in the NBA.

Kuzma had a better night.
Barrett had a better night.
Murray had a MUCH better night.

Jokic is the better shot defender
Here's your proof.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall/

Jokic is top ten in the NBA in every category
2nd in rebounds
7th in assists
9th in scoring

Can Embid say that?
I didn't think so.

The only man in history to do what what Jokic is doing in a season 24/14/8 and shoot over 57 percent from the field is Michael Jordan.
Maybe you heard of him?

Your boy is not winning any MVP award.

But if you want to keep living in you own fantasy land, who am I to stop you.

**thomorino** · 02-25-22, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by stevenash

Kuzma had a better night.
Barrett had a better night.
Murray had a MUCH better night.

Jokic is the better shot defender
Here's your proof.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall/

Jokic is top ten in the NBA in every category
2nd in rebounds
7th in assists
9th in scoring

Can Embid say that?
I didn't think so.

The only man in history to do what what Jokic is doing in a season 24/14/8 and shoot over 57 percent from the field is Michael Jordan.
Maybe you heard of him?

Your boy is not winning any MVP award.

But if you want to keep living in you own fantasy land, who am I to stop you.

Philadelphia played a team with a winning record, those players did not. Embiid was +25.

**d2bets** · 02-25-22, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by stevenash

Kuzma had a better night.
Barrett had a better night.
Murray had a MUCH better night.

Jokic is the better shot defender
Here's your proof.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall/

Jokic is top ten in the NBA in every category
2nd in rebounds
7th in assists
9th in scoring

Can Embid say that?
I didn't think so.

The only man in history to do what what Jokic is doing in a season 24/14/8 and shoot over 57 percent from the field is Michael Jordan.
Maybe you heard of him?

Your boy is not winning any MVP award.

But if you want to keep living in you own fantasy land, who am I to stop you.

lol he could win. It's all still wide open. Jokic, DeMar, Embiid, Giannis. It's A 4-man race yet to be decided. One of them will separate.

**stevenash** · 02-25-22, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by d2bets

lol he could win. It's all still wide open. Jokic, DeMar, Embiid, Giannis. It's A 4-man race yet to be decided. One of them will separate.

He could, but he won't.

Embid's game will be an afterthought tomorrow.
They'll talk about Murray's monster triple/double
Kuzma's huge night.
Barrett dropping a 46 burger on Miami.

Hell, any Philly talk will be about Harden, not Embid.

Embid was flavor of the month last month, everybody has moved on to DeRozen, and nobody has moved off of Jokic.

And those facts and figures, and metrics the NBA provides, they are performance generated.
The operative word being performance.

And Jokic has totally outperformed Embid.

**stevenash** · 02-25-22, 11:37 PM

And a final thought.
If Embid has a night like tonight 13 more games in a row, he'll catch up to Jokic who just had his 13th consecutive double/double.

**thomorino** · 02-25-22, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by stevenash

And a final thought.
If Embid has a night like tonight 13 more games in a row, he'll catch up to Jokic who just had his 13th consecutive double/double.

Again, the biggest difference between Jokic and Embiid is Jokic plays no defense, Embiid is a top defender.

That's why Embiid was +25 tonight, Jokic was +17 last night.

Embiid is better at everything than Jokic bust passing, and Embiid is the best player in the game.

It's not close either.

**stevenash** · 02-25-22, 11:56 PM

The performance data doesn't lie.
Jokic is the only player in the NBA to be in the top ten in every offensive category.
He's out rebounding Embid too.

And for a center, Embid's sub 50 percent FG% is pathetic.

My opinions are backed by performance data.

Liars figure, figure don't lie.

But if you think Embid's better and helps you sleep nights, OK.

**thomorino** · 02-26-22, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by stevenash

The performance data doesn't lie.
Jokic is the only player in the NBA to be in the top ten in every offensive category.
He's out rebounding Embid too.

And for a center, Embid's sub 50 percent FG% is pathetic.

My opinions are backed by performance data.

Liars figure, figure don't lie.

But if you think Embid's better and helps you sleep nights, OK.

Outrebounding is one word and literally every comment you typed tonight is a lie.

Kuzma and Murray needed 2 overtimes to match Embiid's stats - Embiid didn't even play the final 5 minutes of the 4th.

Jokic plays no defense and is incapable of imposing himself physically, Embiid takes over nearly every game he plays, including against the Milwaukee before the break.

Embiid is the clear and overwhelming favorite to win MVP - and you know your arguments make no sense which is why you aren't willing to bet a single additional dollar on Jokic to win the MVP even at +290.

**stevenash** · 02-26-22, 12:10 AM

Not to mention Jokic is so valuable he's the only player in the league that makes his team ten points better when he's on the court.
Embid can't say that either.

Oh, by the way, strength of schedule means less than zero in an MVP debate, plus I'm not sure Philly's Sos is that much harder, if at all.
Three of the top five defensive centers play out west, four of the top six.

The top two defenders in the East are Embid and Vucevic.

**thomorino** · 02-26-22, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by stevenash

Not to mention Jokic is so valuable he's the only player in the league that makes his team ten points better when he's on the court.
Embid can't say that either.

Oh, by the way, strength of schedule means less than zero in an MVP debate, plus I'm not sure Philly's Sos is that much harder, if at all.
Three of the top five defensive centers play out west, four of the top six.

The top two defenders in the East are Embid and Vucevic.

Vucevic is one of the worst defenders in the NBA, he can't guard anyone on the perimeter. The East shits on the West this year, Memphis is the 3 seed.

**stevenash** · 02-26-22, 12:19 AM

I don't know, Curry can bury any team when he's shooting lights out.
Phoenix is crippled without Paul.
Booker can't do everything.

**stevenash** · 02-26-22, 12:22 AM

I gotta go.
Listen, I'm not calling Embid shit, hardly.

But the season Jokic is having this year so far, only Jordan has accomplished.

Have a good weekend, nice to have a civil talk for a change.
Later.

**d2bets** · 02-26-22, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by thomorino

Vucevic is one of the worst defenders in the NBA, he can't guard anyone on the perimeter. The East shits on the West this year, Memphis is the 3 seed.

Vucevic is a horrible defender. Lavine, Caruso and Ball been hurt a lot. Williams out all year. No power forward. So, uh, why do you suppose the Bulls are T-1st in the East?