DeMar DeRozan

[thomorino]

Multiple ways, he has a higher scoring average, that's it.
Don't feed me blocked shots, that's an ancillary stat, and he doesn't even lead the league in that.

The whole board isn't buying what you're selling, and the only one who does, is you.
Shocker again, huh?

Just stop.

You can't even explain +/- or USG%.
Don't try a professional math geek with your razzle dazzle, it doesn't work.

Please, just stop.
Unless you want yet another time out, because you'll snap.
Again.

This is an absurd post.

The ENTIRE BETTING MARKET DISAGREES WITH YOU - literally the entire market. Embiid is even money to win the mvp, Jokic is +270.

As far as the board, you are literally citing 3 people.

Just stop - your arguments are falling apart - the MVP race will likely be over within a week, 2 max, barring injury.

This is going to get embarrassing.

[thomorino]

And Jokic PER is higher than Embiid this season. #1 of all-time right now. So is Giannis. The 3 PER seasons all-time are this season. You just can't compare that with past seasons. It's a different game now than it was then.

How about if we look at player win shares?

Shaq literally couldn't shoot a 10 foot shot. He couldn't have even played in this era in the shape he is in, he was always out of shape. Embiid is only 27, but he's already a much more talented player than Shaq, and its not close.

Embiid does everything. Score in the paint, shoot mid-range, 3 point shooting, he's a very good passer, he can even run the point.

Shaq couldn't come close to running the point.

Just stop - Embiid is better than Shaq in every way.

[thomorino]

Multiple ways, he has a higher scoring average, that's it.
Don't feed me blocked shots, that's an ancillary stat, and he doesn't even lead the league in that.

The whole board isn't buying what you're selling, and the only one who does, is you.
Shocker again, huh?

Just stop.

You can't even explain +/- or USG%.
Don't try a professional math geek with your razzle dazzle, it doesn't work.

Please, just stop.
Unless you want yet another time out, because you'll snap.
Again.

You literally tried to argue that I"m wrong because 2 people in this thread agree with you when the entire betting market agrees with me.

Again, Embiid is +100 to win the MVP, he's a prohibitive favorite. Jokic is +270.

[thomorino]

I can't believe people in this thread are arguing Shaq is better than Embiid. Embiid runs the point and scores 35 a game, Shaq couldn't shoot from 10 feet from the hoop.

.

[stevenash]

This is from Doug Kezirian this morning, and his chat with Jeff Sherman.
Jeff Sherman is the chief oddsmaker for the Las Vegas Super Book, and he's considered a top 10 sports bettor alive.

I believe in what he says, and I believe in my odds and probability skills over, well, most anybody else.

Here's what he said yesterday.

Nikola Jokic, Denver Nuggets (7 points)

The very name of the Most Valuable Player award allows for the sports betting market to offer numerical context. Both oddsmakers and pro bettors constantly update their own set of power ratings and adjust for each player's availability. This type of exercise is never as simple as we want, given the betting market is extremely nuanced. Key numbers carry more weight, and the NBA season always involves injuries and load management. However, I asked an oddsmaker and avid bettor to assume each player's supporting cast at full strength and to operate in a vacuum as much as possible.


That means if the Denver Nuggets were at the Houston Rockets with Jokic, they would be favored by 8.5 points. If he sat out and everyone else remained in the lineup, Denver would be favored by 1.5 points.

"When he is on the floor, per 100 possessions, Denver is outscoring opponents by 10.5 points. It's an elite net rating. When he's not on the floor, they get outscored by 14.6 points," VSiN Senior NBA Analyst Jonathan Von Tobel told ESPN. "He is the difference between the Nuggets being the Suns or the Pistons. Among the MVP candidates, he leads the pack by far."

The reigning MVP has comparable numbers to last season, albeit with a weaker supporting cast, given Michael Porter Jr.'s injury. Jokic leads the NBA in player efficiency rating (PER) and is the only player currently leading his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks.
"It's just incredible what this guy does and what he means to the team," Las Vegas SuperBook head NBA oddsmaker Jeff Sherman told ESPN.

Joel Embid with Harden.
+4

Stop talking.

[stevenash]

NBA's efficiency leader (PER)
Jokic

See that VORP column.
That's value over replacement player.
Jokic is the most valuable.

If Embid is running the point, those point numbers are brutal.
And Embid is not averaging 35 points a game either.


Stop talking please.

Rk	Player	Pos	Age	Tm	G	MP	PER▼	TS%	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	VORP
1	Nikola Jokić	C	26	DEN	55	1813	32.2	0.651	0.251	0.328	9.6	36	23.2	43.6	2	2	7.3
2	Giannis Antetokounmpo	PF	27	MIL	50	1640	32	0.628	0.21	0.606	6.2	29.6	18.2	33.9	1.4	4	5.4
3	Joel Embiid	C	27	PHI	48	1582	31.9	0.613	0.192	0.605	6.5	30.4	18.6	25.6	1.5	4	4.7
4	LeBron James	SF	37	LAL	43	1580	26.3	0.613	0.369	0.267	3.2	19.7	11.5	31.4	2.1	2.5	3.9
5	Kevin Durant	PF	33	BRK	36	1313	26.1	0.626	0.247	0.35	1.7	20	11	27.6	1	2.3	3.1
6	Rudy Gobert	C	29	UTA	46	1476	25.3	0.725	0.005	0.816	12.7	36.8	25.3	5.4	1.1	6.2	2.7
7	Trae Young	PG	23	ATL	55	1898	25	0.591	0.374	0.338	2	10.1	6.1	46.2	1.4	0.3	3.2
8	Jimmy Butler	SF	32	MIA	42	1437	24.8	0.591	0.127	0.541	6.2	14.2	10.3	28.3	2.6	1.4	3.3
9	DeMar DeRozan	PF	32	CHI	57	2039	24.8	0.6	0.091	0.399	2.6	13.5	8.1	24.3	1.2	0.8	2.8
10	Ja Morant	PG	22	MEM	48	1597	24.8	0.572	0.221	0.353	4.3	14.4	9.2	34.5	1.8	1.1	3.2

[thomorino]

NBA's efficiency leader (PER)
Jokic

See that VORP column.
That's value over replacement player.
Jokic is the most valuable.

If Embid is running the point, those point numbers are brutal.
And Embid is not averaging 35 points a game either.


Stop talking please.

Rk	Player	Pos	Age	Tm	G	MP	PER▼	TS%	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	VORP
1	Nikola Jokić	C	26	DEN	55	1813	32.2	0.651	0.251	0.328	9.6	36	23.2	43.6	2	2	7.3
2	Giannis Antetokounmpo	PF	27	MIL	50	1640	32	0.628	0.21	0.606	6.2	29.6	18.2	33.9	1.4	4	5.4
3	Joel Embiid	C	27	PHI	48	1582	31.9	0.613	0.192	0.605	6.5	30.4	18.6	25.6	1.5	4	4.7
4	LeBron James	SF	37	LAL	43	1580	26.3	0.613	0.369	0.267	3.2	19.7	11.5	31.4	2.1	2.5	3.9
5	Kevin Durant	PF	33	BRK	36	1313	26.1	0.626	0.247	0.35	1.7	20	11	27.6	1	2.3	3.1
6	Rudy Gobert	C	29	UTA	46	1476	25.3	0.725	0.005	0.816	12.7	36.8	25.3	5.4	1.1	6.2	2.7
7	Trae Young	PG	23	ATL	55	1898	25	0.591	0.374	0.338	2	10.1	6.1	46.2	1.4	0.3	3.2
8	Jimmy Butler	SF	32	MIA	42	1437	24.8	0.591	0.127	0.541	6.2	14.2	10.3	28.3	2.6	1.4	3.3
9	DeMar DeRozan	PF	32	CHI	57	2039	24.8	0.6	0.091	0.399	2.6	13.5	8.1	24.3	1.2	0.8	2.8
10	Ja Morant	PG	22	MEM	48	1597	24.8	0.572	0.221	0.353	4.3	14.4	9.2	34.5	1.8	1.1	3.2

I'm going to talk slowly here. Embiid doesn't run the point - he's capable of running the point - Shaq couldn't come remotely close to doing so.

Embiid and Jokic have very similar PERs, but Embiid was hurt at the beginning of the year and Embiid is the far better defender than Jokic. Its not close either.

This is why Embiid is the run away favorite to win the MVP.

No one agrees with your little chart, which by the wat has Rudy Gobert ahead of Derozean and Morant - that's absurd.

[thomorino]

This is from Doug Kezirian this morning, and his chat with Jeff Sherman.
Jeff Sherman is the chief oddsmaker for the Las Vegas Super Book, and he's considered a top 10 sports bettor alive.

I believe in what he says, and I believe in my odds and probability skills over, well, most anybody else.

Here's what he said yesterday.

Nikola Jokic, Denver Nuggets (7 points)


The very name of the Most Valuable Player award allows for the sports betting market to offer numerical context. Both oddsmakers and pro bettors constantly update their own set of power ratings and adjust for each player's availability. This type of exercise is never as simple as we want, given the betting market is extremely nuanced. Key numbers carry more weight, and the NBA season always involves injuries and load management. However, I asked an oddsmaker and avid bettor to assume each player's supporting cast at full strength and to operate in a vacuum as much as possible.


That means if the Denver Nuggets were at the Houston Rockets with Jokic, they would be favored by 8.5 points. If he sat out and everyone else remained in the lineup, Denver would be favored by 1.5 points.

"When he is on the floor, per 100 possessions, Denver is outscoring opponents by 10.5 points. It's an elite net rating. When he's not on the floor, they get outscored by 14.6 points," VSiN Senior NBA Analyst Jonathan Von Tobel told ESPN. "He is the difference between the Nuggets being the Suns or the Pistons. Among the MVP candidates, he leads the pack by far."

The reigning MVP has comparable numbers to last season, albeit with a weaker supporting cast, given Michael Porter Jr.'s injury. Jokic leads the NBA in player efficiency rating (PER) and is the only player currently leading his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks.
"It's just incredible what this guy does and what he means to the team," Las Vegas SuperBook head NBA oddsmaker Jeff Sherman told ESPN.

Joel Embid with Harden.
+4

Stop talking.

Embiid didn't have Harden for the overwhelming amount of the season so this analysis has no value. Embiid is a dominant player, he's on another level from Jokic - its not close either.

[stevenash]

Embiid didn't have Harden for the overwhelming amount of the season so this analysis has no value. Embiid is a dominant player, he's on another level from Jokic - its not close either.

Yes it does.

Here.
Where it says was 6.5 before, now 4.0
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia 76ers (6.5 points*)

*Prior to Philly's trade for James Harden and about 4 points after the trade. Supporting cast is a big part of point spread value.

[thomorino]

Yes it does.

Here.
Where it says was 6.5 before, now 4.0
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia 76ers (6.5 points*)

*Prior to Philly's trade for James Harden and about 4 points after the trade. Supporting cast is a big part of point spread value.

Either except my loser leaves the forum forever bet that Embiid not Jokic wins the MVP or go away - you are wrong.

[stevenash]

Either except my loser leaves the forum forever bet that Embiid not Jokic wins the MVP or go away - you are wrong.

No, I won't bet with you, not just you, I won't bet with anyone on the internet.

I have enough action anyway.
And don't badger me. it doesn't work and it'll just get you in trouble.
NO

[stevenash]

^
If Embid wins I'll give you 24 hours of "I told you so" and I'll take it like a man.
That's the best I'll offer on the 'net.

[d2bets]

^
If Embid wins I'll give you 24 hours of "I told you so" and I'll take it like a man.
That's the best I'll offer on the 'net.

Honestly, Embiid might win. Wouldn't exactly surprise me. But I think it all depends on the next 5-6 weeks. It's still up for grabs.

[vitterd]

No, I won't bet with you, not just you, I won't bet with anyone on the internet.

I have enough action anyway.
And don't badger me. it doesn't work and it'll just get you in trouble.
NO

Not sure what’s going on here. I don’t think anyone is allowed to talk about Morino at this site right? Everybody getting banned for it. My thread had 20 posters a night bashing me….nobody got banned. What are the rules concerning him?

[stevenash]

Honestly, Embiid might win. Wouldn't exactly surprise me. But I think it all depends on the next 5-6 weeks. It's still up for grabs.

He very well may.
It's a three way race, and it won't shock me if one of the guards gets in the mix.
Hey! Embid is a star center, my point has always been we don't a ceiling because he's always gone down, wrist problems and such.

You can't put him anywhere near the class Russell, Wilt, Kareem, and the rest of the all time elite centers are in.
I was a kid when Eaton played, if you want to put Eaton and Embid in the same sentence, I might listen.

But it's ludicrous at this stage of his career to mention Embid in any all time list.
See me in five years, than we'll see.

[stevenash]

Not sure what’s going on here. I don’t think anyone is allowed to talk about Morino at this site right? Everybody getting banned for it. My thread had 20 posters a night bashing me….nobody got banned. What are the rules concerning him?

I might have taken a vacation day that memo came out.
I never got one.

I'll give him credit so far, he's been playing fair.

[thomorino]

He very well may.
It's a three way race, and it won't shock me if one of the guards gets in the mix.
Hey! Embid is a star center, my point has always been we don't a ceiling because he's always gone down, wrist problems and such.

You can't put him anywhere near the class Russell, Wilt, Kareem, and the rest of the all time elite centers are in.
I was a kid when Eaton played, if you want to put Eaton and Embid in the same sentence, I might listen.

But it's ludicrous at this stage of his career to mention Embid in any all time list.
See me in five years, than we'll see.

Bill Russell is not in the conversation as a top 5 center, he beat up on small unathletic players in a different era and was a top defender, not a top offensive player.

Embiid is a top 5 all-time center, and its obvious.

[thomorino]

The Bulls are fake, they aren't contenders at all, Derozean gets exposed in the playoffs, the defense isnt' good enough.

[d2bets]

The Bulls are fake, they aren't contenders at all, Derozean gets exposed in the playoffs, the defense isnt' good enough.

It certainly isn't as currently on the floor, but don't forget they are missing 3 very key players, including 2 starters.

[thomorino]

It certainly isn't as currently on the floor, but don't forget they are missing 3 very key players, including 2 starters.

The Bulls are 2-13 against teams with winning records. Their issues are bigger than Caruso and Ball.

[vitterd]

Honestly, Embiid might win. Wouldn't exactly surprise me. But I think it all depends on the next 5-6 weeks. It's still up for grabs.

If Embiid doesn’t get hurt, he’s gonna win the mvp.

[thomorino]

There's no way that anyone who watches Embiid play could possibly think Jokic is a better player. People need to buy tvs.

[pilebuck13]

There's no way that anyone who watches Embiid play could possibly think Jokic is a better player. People need to buy tvs.

Dwight Howard is better

[IBetYou]

Now we see what a great scorer DeRozan is, playing against strong defenses. Several playoff teams getting to him since the break. Nice FT jump shot but otherwise basically a driver -and there's bigger/ stronger drivers about the NBA than him.

[thomorino]

Now we see what a great scorer DeRozan is, playing against strong defenses. Several playoff teams getting to him since the break. Nice FT jump shot but otherwise basically a driver -and there's bigger/ stronger drivers about the NBA than him.

Derozan is getting exposed. The Bulls are now 2-14 against team with winning records. Derozan isn't in the MVP conversation either.

[thomorino]

Dwight Howard is better

Stop talking.

[thomorino]

Derozan's chance of getting MVP is now 0.

[Buckandadime]

Bill Russell is not in the conversation as a top 5 center, he beat up on small unathletic players in a different era and was a top defender, not a top offensive player.

Embiid is a top 5 all-time center, and its obvious.

What??!????
Russell wasn't a T5 but Embiid is???
Wow..
That's like saying Montana wasn't a T5 QB but Allen is..

[IBetYou]

Derozan is getting exposed. The Bulls are now 2-14 against team with winning records. Derozan isn't in the MVP conversation either.

Nice stat. Makes sense... DeRozan & LaVine like to beat up on soft defenses.

[thomorino]

What??!????
Russell wasn't a T5 but Embiid is???
Wow..
That's like saying Montana wasn't a T5 QB but Allen is..

Embiid scores more points in the first half of most games than Russell did full game. Stop.

[jjgold]

Derozan tired out

It’s now embiid , joker or Morant

[Str8Mush4Life]

That's not what I said.

I said Maxey needs the ball to be effective and Curry was a better fit. I never said Harden would be a bad fit.

I don't think Maxey will be effective with Harden and Embiid - Minnesota plays no defense and it was 1 game - 1 game means nothing.

[stevenash]

What??!????
Russell wasn't a T5 but Embiid is???
Wow..
That's like saying Montana wasn't a T5 QB but Allen is..

That's like calling the Suns trash and then going to the finals.

[thomorino]

Its been 4 games.

[thomorino]

That's like calling the Suns trash and then going to the finals.

Embiid is better than Russel at almost everything, just stop. I didn't call the Suns trash.

Jokic didn't even play last night, he was rested, the MVP race will likely be over soon as long as Embiid doesn't get hurt.