Rule Change Proposal for Poker/Tennis

**2Sweeet** · 08-16-23, 05:25 PM

You should get drunk. So you have an excuse for this nonsense is my advice.

**stevenash** · 08-16-23, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by 2Sweeet

You should get drunk. So you have an excuse for this nonsense is my advice.

Johnny's good folk, he can vent.
If I can rant and rave Johnny can vent.
You can vent too, it's OK. venting can be a good thing at times.

Carry on fellas.

Not for nothing, I think Johnny is a beer guy.

**2Sweeet** · 08-16-23, 06:32 PM

I'm just messing around. Nothing wrong with getting drunk. I enjoy the site.

**stevenash** · 08-16-23, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by 2Sweeet

I'm just messing around. Nothing wrong with getting drunk. I enjoy the site.

I knew you were messing around, I was messing back at ya.
It's all good.

And I enjoy reading that you enjoy the site.

**Easy-Rider 66** · 08-16-23, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by stevenash

Johnny's good folk, he can vent.
If I can rant and rave Johnny can vent.
You can vent too, it's OK. venting can be a good thing at times.

Carry on fellas.

Not for nothing, I think Johnny is a beer guy.

Is that Chucky or Johnny V venting Nash?

**stevenash** · 08-16-23, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Easy-Rider 66

Is that Chucky or Johnny V venting Nash?

You pal Nasher's brain goes in cruise control after 6pm, when the sun goes down.
Brain fart there, I meant Chucky, but said Johnny.

**Easy-Rider 66** · 08-16-23, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by stevenash

You pal Nasher's brain goes in cruise control after 6pm, when the sun goes down.
Brain fart there, I meant Chucky, but said Johnny.

OK Nash I thought maybe you were spilling the beans that Chucky =Johnny V. (Therefore one in the same) LOL. Thx for the clarification.

**wombat** · 08-16-23, 07:42 PM

I like the poker blind idea but not too much on the tennis idea because guys that are excellent returners like Djokovic and Medvedev will have a huge advantage.

**funnyb25** · 08-16-23, 07:53 PM

In Women's tennis the server should start with a 15-0 advantage. They get broken 80% of the time.

**ChuckyTheGoat** · 08-16-23, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by stevenash

You pal Nasher's brain goes in cruise control after 6pm, when the sun goes down.
Brain fart there, I meant Chucky, but said Johnny.

Ya, one and the same.

I'm serious, tho. I advocate both changes I write on top. Would improve each game.

**ChuckyTheGoat** · 08-16-23, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by stevenash

You pal Nasher's brain goes in cruise control after 6pm, when the sun goes down.
Brain fart there, I meant Chucky, but said Johnny.

Nashy, would like you to issue a State of the Union for SBR. My thoughts:

1) Heading into the Football season, I don't see the same zest I saw in the past.

2) Props to the Women's World Cup posters. Some good info, and the tournament has been exciting.

3) Really think the 2022 NFL Contrarian thread was one of the best ongoing threads in the last 12 months. Only two games away from 60% ATS on volume. Just don't the interest level is there this year.

**Optional** · 08-16-23, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by funnyb25

In Women's tennis the server should start with a 15-0 advantage. They get broken 80% of the time.

^^^ thats what I was thinking.

**ChuckyTheGoat** · 08-16-23, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Optional

^^^ thats what I was thinking.

Very true. The Female serves (mostly) lack power.

**wombat** · 08-17-23, 10:52 AM

Most of the big servers have a poor return game so it all balances out. Giving an extra point to the returner to start off will be a huge advantage for good returners especially on clay.

**ChuckyTheGoat** · 08-17-23, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by wombat

Most of the big servers have a poor return game so it all balances out. Giving an extra point to the returner to start off will be a huge advantage for good returners especially on clay.

The match that came to mind was the Wimbledon match Isner played. Went on forever. Would much prefer to give the Returner a fair shot to break.

**stevenash** · 08-17-23, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by ChuckyTheGoat

Nashy, would like you to issue a State of the Union for SBR.

I'm not a man of few words, Peavy will be the first to tell you that, Opti as well.

Quite the opposite, I'm a man of too many words, I'm a bit of a blowhard (Shocker, huh)
You know I can be long winded, For every ten words I speak maybe two of them are really relevant, the other eight, mostly filler.

Ally on the other hand , she possesses intelligence on loan from God, she's just that brilliant, but she's a woman of very few words, for every word she speaks is very relevant, so when she speaks it's best to process every word, the amazing thing is how she hasn't bludgeoned me across my temple with a steel spade shovel to death yet.

In real life I was an IBM Mainframe Operations Analyst,
Not so much anymore as I am now semi-retired.
(That was the official job title and job description on my HR file)
Pretty boring, huh?

So, I like to think I am qualified to answer your question, note, I didn't say I am qualified, I said I would like to think,,,

But I'll cut to the chase, no guarantees though that I'll give you a short answer.

I say this not because I like to talk about myself (and God knows I've been guilty of that in the past) but as a point of reference so to speak.

I've been in the business since Derek Jeter's rookie year, I know this because back in 1995 my late, great dad asked me "What do you think of the Yankees chances this season, to which I replied "I don't know Dad, you know hard hard it is to win with a rookie shortstop"
Proving myself wrong, yet again.

This I remember like it was yesterday, and I can't remember what I had for dinner yesterday.

Let's forget about the fact that I help out around here.
Simple put, an analysts job is to collect as much available facts and data available that is relevant to the topic at hand, and come to an informed, educated conclusion based on those facts and data.

So, from a professional IT analysts POV, and as a 28 year veteran, both paid and otherwise, with social media platforms like this one, here goes...

Nashy, would like you to issue a State of the Union for SBR.

* SBR since the new ownership took over several months ago is still a work in progress.
A slow work in progress, but a slow but positive work in progress that is trending (IMO) in the correct direction.
Case in point, have you seen the front page lately, it's streamlined and hardly cluttered anymore.

I don't think it's fair to comment on the interest level of an upcoming NFL season when we are still weeks away from commencement.
Why don't we wait until December and we'll revisit that question.

Long story short...
(which I am not capable of making happen)

SBR is still a work in progress that is heading in the right direction.
I like the new business model, I also like who I answer to here these days as well.

Chucky?
I have a project for you.

You say you enjoyed last seasons Contrarian thread, right?
You also say you don't think the interest level will be there this season, right?

Why don't we (and we being you) create such a thread, maintain that thread, and let's find out together if indeed that interest level is there or not, instead of speculating on that.

Deal?

That's it, you asked, I responded.
I don't want this to turn into a Q and A thread, so that's it.

Now I'll sit back and wait for some poster to call me out, twist all the words I just posted into knots to fit their agenda with innuendos, and untruths, and attack me without directly calling me by name mind you, by saying I am naive and contradict myself.

(Like that's never happened before)

lol

**Easy-Rider 66** · 08-17-23, 01:25 PM

THX Nash for your take. I also like the new cleaned up SBR. Miss the book/store but legal books will replace that in my state 2024. Good luck moving forward.

**ChuckyTheGoat** · 08-17-23, 02:05 PM

OK, thanks, Nashy!

That's a long answer, but thank you. Took me less time to read "War and Peace".

**Debi** · 09-06-23, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by ChuckyTheGoat

OK, maybe I'm tired. My most half-baked ideas of the Day.
1) Poker. Make the Button pay 1/2 Blind for an Ante.
...Many poker games are using the Double Big Blind ante. I don't like it.
...Button is the advantage position. Make the Button stick in 1/2 Blind.
...That sets the starting Pool at 2 BB.

I really like the current system with the big blind paying the ante. It has sped up the game and simplified things for dealers who have to collect. I wouldn't change it.

Keep it simple and let the button remain a very valued position.

Interesting idea though. And you get brownie points for your avatar lol.

**ChuckyTheGoat** · 09-06-23, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Bandpat

I really like the current system with the big blind paying the ante. It has sped up the game and simplified things for dealers who have to collect. I wouldn't change it.

Keep it simple and let the button remain a very valued position.

Interesting idea though. And you get brownie points for your avatar lol.

Salud, bandpat. Thanks.

I honestly like the idea. For speed of play, I hear you.

I just think the Button is at an unfair advantage. That extra ante should be paid by the Button (IMHO) as a tariff for position advantage. Poker is a game where the Prize money = the Blinds. In my mind that could be:
1 = Small Blind
2 = Big Blind
1 = Button
...Start off with 4 chips in the Pot.

I've played a good bit of Poker, maybe too much. Blind play has evolved over time:
1) Used to be that the Small Blind range was so tight. So tight that it should be respected. It's a brutal starting spot.
2) Players have started to understand the Big Blind more. Post-flop, I think the BB should use alternative strategies. I hate the tradition of checking out of the BB. If the BB has a strong hand or a strong draw, why not put the pressure on the IP player?
...One of the biggest advantages of Position is that IP can opt to take a free card.
...I can't stand the BB flopping and hitting their range. Why check it to the IP player, so he can check it back on a board he hates? Then he'll catch his card on the Free Card that he took. No way, there are different approaches to that.
...A few trends I see: a) LARGER bet sizes OOP, which makes sense. b) More liberal use of Check-Raise by the OOP player.
...Again, playing out of Position is brutal. If you play it passively, it's that much harder.

**ChuckyTheGoat** · 09-06-23, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by Bandpat

I really like the current system with the big blind paying the ante. It has sped up the game and simplified things for dealers who have to collect. I wouldn't change it.

Keep it simple and let the button remain a very valued position.

Interesting idea though. And you get brownie points for your avatar lol.

Band:

*Thx for your posts.

At one time, SBR had nice Daily Poker tournaments. Fun, and the price was right.

And the Poker Forum used to be pretty active. IMHO, poker-play has gotten worse and worse. Players feel comfortable playing a limited number of hands.

They are scared to death of post-flop play, b/c it's too complicated. Most of the players I see want to make a nutted hand, bet it to the moon and hope to get paid off.

**ChuckyTheGoat** · 09-06-23, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by ChuckyTheGoat

Band:

*Thx for your posts.

At one time, SBR had nice Daily Poker tournaments. Fun, and the price was right.

And the Poker Forum used to be pretty active. IMHO, poker-play has gotten worse and worse. Players feel comfortable playing a limited number of hands.

They are scared to death of post-flop play, b/c it's too complicated. Most of the players I see want to make a nutted hand, bet it to the moon and hope to get paid off.

Band, follow-up on this:

*My main observation on Poker is that players don't want to gamble.

They are scared to death of the idea that they might be beat. The fallout is that I only see VALUE bets at the table.

The 9-man Full Ring games I play are terrible. Why not just play Face Up?

When a guy bets his hand, he made his hand. I played a recent tournament where I called down 2x on River, just to keep em honest. Why bother? Calling down on river is wasting your $$. If he's betting, he has a big hand.

**DrunkHorseplayer** · 09-07-23, 08:58 AM

Tennis should keep their rules but go back to wooden rackets.

**ChuckyTheGoat** · 09-07-23, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by DrunkHorseplayer

Tennis should keep their rules but go back to wooden rackets.

That's a good one, Drunk. You do hear about the fibers in the new rackets. Make it a skill game, not a technology game.

**DrunkHorseplayer** · 09-11-23, 09:01 PM

Can't figure out why tennis and golf haven't wised up and followed baseball's lead; golf is starting to figure it out though.

**stevenash** · 09-11-23, 10:54 PM

I'm in favor of the BB ante rule.

I read Danny's book on tournament play and tournament structures etc...
Danny writes his ideal early tournament strategy is ultra tight and conservative since in the first four levels the ante's are so small to try to steal them, and some tournaments there is no ante in the first four levels.
If Danny has a monster, he'll try to take the pot down early, he preaches small ball in the first four levels.

Than as the tourney progresses than he'll attack the blinds and antes.

**Debi** · 10-04-23, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by ChuckyTheGoat

Band:

*Thx for your posts.

At one time, SBR had nice Daily Poker tournaments. Fun, and the price was right.

And the Poker Forum used to be pretty active. IMHO, poker-play has gotten worse and worse. Players feel comfortable playing a limited number of hands.

They are scared to death of post-flop play, b/c it's too complicated. Most of the players I see want to make a nutted hand, bet it to the moon and hope to get paid off.

Originally posted by ChuckyTheGoat

Band, follow-up on this:

*My main observation on Poker is that players don't want to gamble.

They are scared to death of the idea that they might be beat. The fallout is that I only see VALUE bets at the table.

The 9-man Full Ring games I play are terrible. Why not just play Face Up?

When a guy bets his hand, he made his hand. I played a recent tournament where I called down 2x on River, just to keep em honest. Why bother? Calling down on river is wasting your $$. If he's betting, he has a big hand.

<br>
<br>

Sorry for the delay in replying - have been away for a couple of weeks on holiday.

Maybe we can breathe some life back into the poker discussions here.

It would be cool if they are ever able to get some poker tournaments going here again. I prefer to play live but like to jump in a few online games here and there.

I run into some players like you describe - the good thing is they are easy to spot right away.

**ChuckyTheGoat** · 10-04-23, 05:43 PM

Thx, Band. Yes, I enjoy the discussion.

Poker was a staple here. Whoever removed it made a terrible decision. You think there might be a correlation with the Decrease in traffic?

Yes, been working on my game. So many players are what I call "Limp - Value Bettors."

I find their play to be atrocious. Admittedly, sometimes I get caught. And it ties back to me not believing they could misplay THAT PARTICULAR HAND over multiple streets.

1) I think Players picked up on the idea that they can get max value of Limping Aces (AA).
...Yes, that's one particular hand that's unusually strong. You can play it in multiple ways. But be aware that AA is constantly losing value...when you allow your opponents to see more cards.

2) I see players limp any 2 cards. The worst I've seen is players Open-limping TT.
...You think TT might flop some Over-cards? On the flop, they have to turn their hand into a bluff.

3) I have found a good metric on what I'll call Exploding Bet Ratio across streets.
...One can view it as Flop/PreF, Turn/Flop, River/PreF etc.
...If a player is betting to the moon (on a previously low-value hand), he LOVES his hand. He is married to that hand.
...If you don't have a premium-hand, go away. Don't contribute $$ to his fund.

On the low-level tables, I do believe that a very high ratio of Value/Bluff is in play. I'm trying to get better at Bluff catching.
...One spot that is prone to Bluffing = last to act on the River.
...Busted draws make sense, but the River bluffs can be broader.
...In lightly-bet pots, it's often a matter of being the first one to take a stab at it.
...Remember one thing about the Limp - Value bettor: *If they had a chance to bet it and Checked, that means they don't have it.
...And bad opponents think that EVERYONE plays like that. One of the most effective plays I've seen is Checking thru Top Pair on a dry-board. Villain will put you on a modest holding and bluff with impunity. Great spot where you can let your Opponent bet your hand for you.

**Debi** · 10-05-23, 08:02 AM

Originally posted by ChuckyTheGoat

Thx, Band. Yes, I enjoy the discussion.

Poker was a staple here. Whoever removed it made a terrible decision. You think there might be a correlation with the Decrease in traffic?

Yes, been working on my game. So many players are what I call "Limp - Value Bettors."

I find their play to be atrocious. Admittedly, sometimes I get caught. And it ties back to me not believing they could misplay THAT PARTICULAR HAND over multiple streets.

1) I think Players picked up on the idea that they can get max value of Limping Aces (AA).
...Yes, that's one particular hand that's unusually strong. You can play it in multiple ways. But be aware that AA is constantly losing value...when you allow your opponents to see more cards.

2) I see players limp any 2 cards. The worst I've seen is players Open-limping TT.
...You think TT might flop some Over-cards? On the flop, they have to turn their hand into a bluff.

3) I have found a good metric on what I'll call Exploding Bet Ratio across streets.
...One can view it as Flop/PreF, Turn/Flop, River/PreF etc.
...If a player is betting to the moon (on a previously low-value hand), he LOVES his hand. He is married to that hand.
...If you don't have a premium-hand, go away. Don't contribute $$ to his fund.

On the low-level tables, I do believe that a very high ratio of Value/Bluff is in play. I'm trying to get better at Bluff catching.
...One spot that is prone to Bluffing = last to act on the River.
...Busted draws make sense, but the River bluffs can be broader.
...In lightly-bet pots, it's often a matter of being the first one to take a stab at it.
...Remember one thing about the Limp - Value bettor: *If they had a chance to bet it and Checked, that means they don't have it.
...And bad opponents think that EVERYONE plays like that. One of the most effective plays I've seen is Checking thru Top Pair on a dry-board. Villain will put you on a modest holding and bluff with impunity. Great spot where you can let your Opponent bet your hand for you.

I am sure they had a good reason at the time for stopping the poker tournaments - but maybe if we get enough interest going in this forum they can re-visit that idea.

Limping is an interesting part of poker. I originally only played online and was taught early to never open limp and limit limping behind to the right circumstances.

What was shocking to me was when I began playing live tournaments. Of course there is always a lot of open limping from the inexperienced players - they want to get in cheap and have a hard time folding. But I was really surprised at the number of experienced players and even pros who open limp. There is something good on that from Daniel Negreanu which I will try to find.

It hasn't changed my play much though. I will sometimes be on a table where I think an open limp could be beneficial or even just okay - but I still try to refrain from doing it most of the time.

**ChuckyTheGoat** · 10-05-23, 08:54 AM

Thx, Band. I have seen Negreanu playing a Limp strategy.

Of course, he's a skilled player. I have seen him limp JJ UTG. He turned his hand into a bluff-catcher on a K-hi board.

My logic is that you always want to charge opponent and take a stab at the blinds. Limping is terrible, IMHO. For one, you give the Big Blind free cards and allow their equity to bloat.

In my study of what is in the Limp pool of starting hands, it's:
*Mostly Junk.
*A few Small pairs that are set-mining. In my mind, this should set off Alarm Bells if there are multiple low cards that might have made their Set (which they are now betting to the Moon).
*AA.
...I never worry too much about the Limped Aces. That's one holding. Why go crazy over a hand that is Prob(holding) < 0.5%?

**JAKEPEAVY21** · 10-05-23, 09:00 AM

Chucky, I do not support the proposals but I'm usually resistant to change so take it with a grain of salt.

**eurambaba** · 10-12-23, 02:19 AM