Pay Per Head Sites- Legal?

**falconticket** · 02-01-11, 01:10 PM

You can get head in south atlanta for 5 bucks. No need to go offshore.

**jjgold** · 02-01-11, 01:10 PM

Son you will be in jail faster than a fukkin speeding bullet

Those sites are illegal unless you do not book to usa customers

Lots of ways they can nail you

Son stay away and go to work

**losched16** · 02-01-11, 01:34 PM

I figured these were quite illegal, I just had very little knowledge about them. But I was also a bit confused about how offshore operations fly in the US.

**Landscaper** · 02-01-11, 01:38 PM

I bet with one from a bookie..been with the guy for years and he has never had a problem. Don't be worried about being arrested

**jjgold** · 02-01-11, 01:39 PM

They do not fly in usa

They can get busted anytime

Its just hard because these operations in Costa Rica

They name them from time to time when they come to states

**Slainte** · 02-01-11, 01:44 PM

I've never heard of this service, but after 5 mins of reading in google all i can understand is that this is pretty similar if not the same as any offshore book like 5dimes or the greek etc. ... the question is why bother at all

**Bluehorseshoe** · 02-01-11, 01:48 PM

I don't know if it's considered illegal owning one of these sites. You could state that the site is a "just for fun" site like the poker websites and you have no idea if the people paying for it are using it for illegal purposes. The government can't 100% prove it's used for gambling purposes, but I'm sure they could make a decent hearsay argument against it.

**YorkHunt** · 02-01-11, 01:54 PM

Be careful, very careful

**SBR_John** · 02-01-11, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by losched16

I know being a bookie is illegal, so my question is about setting up one of these offshore pay per head bookie sites. If a US resident got caught owning one of these sites, could they be arrested (or whatever the penalty is for being a bookie in the US). My initial thought was yes, however, then I started to think about other off shore operations, like Full Tilt Poker, PokerStars, and sports books that operate overseas but allow US players to use the sites.

Bookies are illegal in the US because essentially, they are engaging in gambling operations without a license. Now, with Pay Per Head sites, they have their own license and operate in areas free from regulation like we are used to in the US (just how Full Tilt has their headquarters over seas but can conduct business in the US). Therefore, could that specific PPH site be like your business partner who operates everything legally from their country and you provide the funding?

Sorry if this is a stupid question, just wondering how these sites work from a legal standpoint and what the ramifications are (if any), if caught.

PS. I am not a bookie, but had an idea for a sports betting website serving a specific niche and, when researching how to start a site like bodog, Sportsbook.com, etc... I came across a ton of these PPH sites. Naturally this intrigued me and wanted to get more info about these sites.

Good question.

It is probably illegal due to the wire act. This is one of the grey areas where you would likely see a plea so that neither side faces a loss at a trial. If you think about it the PPH shops are actually not booking at all. The agent is the one "booking" the bet. But the question of aiding and abetting is not as clear. If this was a prop I would have it as a PICK -110.

**jjgold** · 02-01-11, 03:11 PM

They get you on banking laws

A lot of these fukkin nit wits use American banks and that is how they can get nabbed

Also the agents are in usa and they can nab you that way also

Now if you live in CR and do not come to usa the only people that get in trouble are your agents, your clear even if you own site and are money man just do not ever come to usa

It is extremely rare usa raids costa rican shops

**Dank_Fire** · 02-01-11, 05:34 PM

Is it true that most major offshore bookmakers dont leave the country at all or at least come to America?

**scott235** · 02-01-11, 05:46 PM

A PPH site for local bookies is great, if you use it to bet, don'y worry about it, worry about how good your bookie is.

As far as starting one, the only way I'd do it is with a secure elite proxy, a virtual office with a mail drop, and you'd have to bank offshore with a corporate account.

**jjgold** · 02-01-11, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by Dank_Fire

Is it true that most major offshore bookmakers dont leave the country at all or at least come to America?

Most do not come especially if they have a record

**KKoz9** · 02-01-11, 06:53 PM

If you don't handle any money transfers it is fine. You are just providing software for others "entertainment".

Some of them are just a middle man for locals not to deal posting lines, telephones, etc.

**skrtelfan** · 02-01-11, 09:17 PM

Everyone thought about this years ago. This is so well known Law and Order did an episode about a PPH shop like 10 years ago.

**iceminers26** · 02-01-11, 09:26 PM

PPH operations are not illegal if they are ran from a jurisdiction that allows gambling, ex: Costa Rica. The illegal part that comes into play is the collecting/payout of monies, which is illegal in the US.

**henry hillbilly** · 02-01-11, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by falconticket

You can get head in south atlanta for 5 bucks. No need to go offshore.

I hear that Lots of people are looking for you Mr falcon?

**wtt0315** · 02-01-11, 10:52 PM

yes its illegal, actually poker sites are illegal in terms, otherwise why would they be trying to legalize them in congress.

**BrianLaverty** · 02-02-11, 12:11 AM

Yep.. basically, if you wanna run one, you can't ever come back into the USA.... not worth the risk to run it in the US IMO

**THE PROFIT** · 02-02-11, 01:04 AM

I saw something on one of these expose shows the other day about a guy who followed all the rules, set up outside of US jurisdiction, etc.. but the US shut down his site & is trying to prosecute him. Very well known operation but I cant remember the name.

Its basically a situation of who ya know & who ya blow. If the government wants your ass youre fuked

**csm506** · 02-02-11, 01:12 AM

you can get head for 10 bucks at hunts point market

**Legions36** · 02-02-11, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by THE PROFIT

I saw something on one of these expose shows the other day about a guy who followed all the rules, set up outside of US jurisdiction, etc.. but the US shut down his site & is trying to prosecute him. Very well known operation but I cant remember the name.

Its basically a situation of who ya know & who ya blow. If the government wants your ass youre fuked

OP wasn't saying he would set up his own shop, he was saying he wanted to join this type of service if it was legal to do. Do it at your own risk as the service part is legal but if one of your clients tells then thats where u get into trouble because your dealing with handling money, but how far are they really going to go unless your like a cousin of Pablo Ecsobar.

**Santo** · 02-02-11, 02:47 AM

It's one of the clearer violations of US legislation as, through a PPH medium or not, you're booking bets.

**Legions36** · 02-02-11, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Santo

It's one of the clearer violations of US legislation as, through a PPH medium or not, you're booking bets.

Its being done by computer or by phone in another country so your not really doing anything here, but u do have to collect and if someone says something then thats where u go wrong. Seriously what are the chances if you do this with people u know, i mean if u have it open to the public then u could run into issues.
But what can i really say as i have never done this before, i have read that people have been using this for years and never had any issues.

**scott235** · 02-02-11, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by Santo

It's one of the clearer violations of US legislation as, through a PPH medium or not, you're booking bets.

Is this true? So, if you provide the platform for a bookie's clients, that is the same as bookmaking?

**sweep** · 02-05-13, 01:18 PM

Bump for poster

What makes a PPH (Pay Per Head) service illegal?

jpveltri

**InsiderHer** · 02-05-13, 02:01 PM

It would be difficult to circumvent the laws that makes booking illegal. In the old days, guys would try everything until finally moving offshore. While PPH does not circumvent any of these laws it does make the lives of every bookie easier and more professional. So using a PPH site or having a website does not make it illegal. The act of booking is what breaks laws like the wire act. The Wired article was interesting on the software developmental side. A pph company does not book bets nor exchange monies for those bets. The same argument could be made on the software side and it will be interesting to see the ultimate outcome of that case.

**TheStandard.ag** · 02-05-13, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Santo

It's one of the clearer violations of US legislation as, through a PPH medium or not, you're booking bets.

What are you basing this statement on? It doesn't seem clear at all. There are really only 2 laws on the books that could make this illegal. The Wire Act which makes it illegal to make phone calls across state lines to place a bet and UIGEA which makes it illegal to transfer money from the US to an "illegal" offshore gambling organization. A software provider located in Costa Rica that doesn't take bets wouldn't violate either of those. The aiding and abetting argument has some merit I suppose, but it's not clear which law would be enforced with that.

**PassTheDutchie** · 02-05-13, 11:27 PM

To answer your question we really do not have enough information.

You say that you know booking is illegal, but then you ask if someone in the US can own a PPH site. Since only bookies 'own' and use these sites, the question makes no sense. Unless you mean that you are the PPH provider that owns the site and gives it to the bookie to use.

In that case it's about international law. In general when it comes to international law and internet the rule is that you abide by the law where the servers are located and/or where the service is provided and/or where the transaction is done. When it comes to sportsbooks or pph services, this would mean that the laws of Costa Rica, Panama, Curacao or Antigua would be relevant, depending where your operation is located.

Unfortunately when it comes to online gambling the USA takes a different stance as they say it's about their citizens money. This is (simply put) what the whole Antigua-USA WTO dispute is about.

See http://www.antiguawto.com/

In the end, this does not matter as the US goverment follows the money. In general the US goverment will go after the bookies, as these busts are all about the money they can grab. The money is with the bookie not with the PPH service. There was a group in Arizona that got their verdict in November 2011 (I think, cant find the link). In the verdict it actually said that they used 'a service in Costa Rica that had no stake in the winning'. Thus showing they have little interest in the actual operation.

Assuming we are talking about us bookies with us players, then we need to look at the US laws that are there to prevent ofshore gaming. There are two main laws, one to prevent the actual placing of wagers (Wire Act) and one to prevent the money to be sent to these companies (Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act or UIGEA).

As far as I know the Wire Act was more to prevent people from calling to a state that allows sportsbetting (Nevada) and thus going around their own local/state laws. So I am not sure how it would apply to international phone calls, I guess it would as well. It is probably a lot harder to get convicted based on this law. Usually they use this law and others like 'the promotion of illegal gambling' or racketeering to show that the bookies are money laundering. This is easier to prove. So in a lot of these cases the bookies go down for money laundering charges.

The UIGEA is only relevant if the bookie pays the PPH service with a check, wire, P2P, etc. A lot of these places have collectors in the US that can collect in cash. Eventually they will have to get the cash out of the usa to pay their operational cash, but in theory you could fly in an out with 10,000 usd each time and not break the UIGEA.

As to owning the the PPH service or sportsbook. It is almost impossible to find out who actually owns a sportsbook or PPH service. Both Panama and Curacao have Foundations that protect the people behind these Foundations and Anguila companies have bearer shares. These entities are used to own the sportsbook. In the Pinnacle bust of November last year, they claim they have busted some Pinnacle owners. This is pure based on what they have heard of phone conversations they listened in on. In other words they think they are Pinnacle owners because thats what they have heard. Not because they have the documents to prove this.

If they do find out you are an owner and you are a us citizen, you are at fault. I have heard that the feds told someone that it doesnt matter that what you do is legal where you do it (abroad), as a us citizen you are to obey the us law where ever you go. Not sure though if they have convicted someone based on this principle and if they could. I think this is also why one of the Google founders gave up his citizenship. He was not allowed to invest in specific international companies because of US laws.

As being a business partner to a sportsbook or PPH service, in general they leave you alone. There are known cases though. DGS used to have a service called DG Defense that was operating from Miami and helped sportsbook protect against DDOS attacks. They got busted and the servers were confiscated. More recently ASI got taken down for providing software to sportsbooks. Outcome still unknown, but the feds tried to force the owner to put in a backdoor in his software. First he agreed, then he refused. I am guessing they were putting a lot of pressure on him.

See http://manhattanda.org/press-release...ompany-and-exe

On the other hand, US phone companies have been handing out tons of 800 numbers that have 238 (BET) or 92437 (WAGER) in them. Dont think any of these companies have been indicted.

In conclusion, I dont think you can be US citizen and a legal investor/owner in a sportsbook/PPH company and sent your profits back to the USA and enjoy them

**TheStandard.ag** · 02-06-13, 02:36 AM

Well written reply PassTheDutchie. This is clearly still a gray area and anyone from the US involved in a PPH site should probably take as many precautions as possible since you never know when the Justice Dept. will think they have a case. It is very clear that a US citizen can't be an owner in an offshore sportsbook that takes US bets since that is a business that receives money transferred directly from players. A PPH company is really just a software provider that isn't taking any wagers, so it's much harder for any sort of legal action to be taken, but still a good idea to be very careful.

**PassTheDutchie** · 02-06-13, 08:18 AM

I did some googling and found that it was DigiDefense, my mistake. Also in the article I found it says that Cris was it's first customer, although I was always told that Cris/DGS were part (owners) of DigiDefense.

see http://egamingpulse.com/archives/534...t-and-Won.html

Could not find an article on the bust, but I believe the bust is the reason they changed their name to Prolexic.

Also found the link to the Arizone case.

see http://www.fbi.gov/phoenix/press-rel...ring-sentenced

**ellismack33** · 11-29-18, 03:17 PM

Can anybody guide me to some other resources besides these ones below. I'm looking for something more advance at this point.:

How Bookmakers Make Money

how to become a bookie

**dealer wins** · 11-29-18, 03:34 PM

5 year old thread lol

**kidcudi92** · 11-29-18, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by ellismack33

Can anybody guide me to some other resources besides these ones below. I'm looking for something more advance at this point.:

How Bookmakers Make Money

how to become a bookie

is that you in your photo

no disrespect just genuine curiosity