Wagering is currently disabled for my account at Pinnacle !!!!

**Hareeba!** · 10-14-15, 01:59 PM

Never experienced that. But I don't do anything dodgy.

And they advertise that they welcome arbers so I doubt that's the issue here.

**Optional** · 10-14-15, 02:02 PM

I believe they are more than happy to serve arbers, as the pinny side is more often the losing side long term.

Try to be patient and just answer the questions again.

If you don't feel fairly treated you can also submit a complaint to SBR but personally i would try to calmly wrk it out with them myself first if possible.

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**zlatan25** · 10-14-15, 02:11 PM

when i say i sometimes use my Pinnacle account for arbing, i meant that i sometimes bet on all the eventualities of a match on Pinnacle. For example, if Federer plays against Nadal, i may bet on Nadal odd 2.1 on Pinnacle et bet on Federer odd 2.05 on Pinnacle again for example some hours later. But i had already asked them if that was authorized and they had answered me yes that was

**zlatan25** · 10-14-15, 02:14 PM

So they say they authorize arbing, but it happened they had asked me why i had bet on a player and then on the other player...

**zlatan25** · 10-14-15, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Optional

I believe they are more than happy to serve arbers, as the pinny side is more often the losing side long term.

Try to be patient and just answer the questions again.

If you don't feel fairly treated you can also submit a complaint to SBR but personally i would try to calmly wrk it out with them myself first if possible.

http://www.sportsbookreview.com/sportsbook-complaint/

You're right, but the problem is i absolutely need to place wagers very shortly, so i hesitate to post my complaint now so that SBR can contact them and fix the problem

**Optional** · 10-14-15, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by zlatan25

So they say they authorize arbing, but it happened they had asked me why i had bet on a player and then on the other player...

That's not actually arbing.

Arbing is when you take both sides at the same time at different books. Can't be done at one book unless they have a line error posted.

**Hareeba!** · 10-14-15, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Optional

That's not actually arbing.

Arbing is when you take both sides at the same time at different books. Can't be done at one book unless they have a line error posted.

Correct. Amazing how frequently you see people saying they are arbing when what they are really doing is trading.
Arbs should have no risk attached to them.

**zlatan25** · 10-14-15, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Hareeba!

Correct. Amazing how frequently you see people saying they are arbing when what they are really doing is trading.
Arbs should have no risk attached to them.

Oh yes you're right, normally arbing is when you take both sides at the same time at different book. I regularly arb too. But sometimes it happens i trade too, because as i place good value bets at Pinnacle, then , hours later, odds turn.... And i can make benefit.

**zlatan25** · 10-14-15, 02:49 PM

And there's nothing illegal in it as i had already asked Pinnacle if one could bet on all the eventualities of a match at Pinnacle, and the answer was clearly yes

**Optional** · 10-14-15, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by zlatan25

And there's nothing illegal in it as i had already asked Pinnacle if one could bet on all the eventualities of a match at Pinnacle, and the answer was clearly yes

Nothing wrong with that either.

Although if you can regularly find spots to trade both sides on Pinny you must be pretty sharp at a guess!

Actually, thinking about it, if you manage to do this a lot I bet they might wonder why you aren't taking the other side at a softer book more often.

**zlatan25** · 10-14-15, 02:56 PM

I' ve just submitted complaint because i feel if i don't they'll take all the time they want to restaure wagering on my account !

**Optional** · 10-14-15, 02:57 PM

**zlatan25** · 10-14-15, 03:05 PM

I've nothing to hide Optional , so should you need a copy of all my bets to understand the situation and fixe the issue, there's no problem: I've just written Pinnacle and told them that i gave them the authorisation to show SBR all the bets i placed if needed ;-)

**shaunovery** · 10-14-15, 04:00 PM

So many people don't understand arbing

**zlatan25** · 10-14-15, 04:05 PM

I'm so disgusted...I've just received email/answer from Pinnacle that says:

"
Dear Client,

Your account wagering has been suspended for line manipulation in tennis.

Once your pending wagers have been graded, please submit your withdrawal request for the full balance.

Your account will be permanently closed."

No explanations. "Line manipulation in tennis"? what does it mean? I would be ok for SBR to have a look at my account and bets and judge it. Could it be usefull and allow me to keep my Pinnacle account open?

**Hareeba!** · 10-14-15, 05:14 PM

I hope SBR can come up with an explanation for this.

I'd love to understand how a player can "line manipulate" at Pinnacle.

**Optional** · 10-14-15, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by zlatan25

I'm so disgusted...I've just received email/answer from Pinnacle that says:

"
Dear Client,

Your account wagering has been suspended for line manipulation in tennis.

Once your pending wagers have been graded, please submit your withdrawal request for the full balance.

Your account will be permanently closed."

No explanations. "Line manipulation in tennis"? what does it mean? I would be ok for SBR to have a look at my account and bets and judge it. Could it be usefull and allow me to keep my Pinnacle account open?

Sounds like they have your account flagged as sharp and they think you are betting one side hard enough to move the odds far enough to create the trade opportunity on purpose. Sound possible?

An interesting one for sure.

**SBR Forum** · 10-14-15, 07:16 PM

Thanks for sharing with us. We will speak with senior management for details. In the meantime, your account being closed and full balance paid is what players should expect dealing with top sportsbooks, and that is what Pinnacle has said they will do from what you've shared with us.

Remember that sportsbooks can close an account for whatever reason they want - as long as your winning bets/balance is honored (absent extreme cases of fraud) then all is fair. It is the books that decide to unjustly confiscate winnings or look for any odd rule violation that players should avoid.

**Limited** · 10-14-15, 11:59 PM

I don't know what exactly is the reason for the OP's problems, but I have placed bets (arbs) on both sides of Pinnacle many times without any problem. Always when you place a bet with them you are just covering the other side cos most likely someone placed the bet before you on the other side. It is in Pin interest that you cover the other side, they don't really care about how many times you place bets on same lines or opposite lines of the same event. They just take a juice.

**RonPaul2008** · 10-15-15, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by zlatan25

So they say they authorize arbing, but it happened they had asked me why i had bet on a player and then on the other player...

Wow, that is none of their business and I am surprised pinnacle would even ask. Maybe they aren't as good as 8 years ago.

**zlatan25** · 10-15-15, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by Optional

Sounds like they have your account flagged as sharp and they think you are betting one side hard enough to move the odds far enough to create the trade opportunity on purpose. Sound possible?

An interesting one for sure.

You're right Optional, you point the real problem for them. Of course create the trade opportunity at Pinnacle is possible, i would even say that's very easy, for someone who immediately recognizes value bets. I have experience enough with Pinnacle to know/guess what game spread/total games (for tennis match) will be at the very end, i mean just before match start. So when Pinny for example starts displaying a line for total games with "over/under 19.5 games" for example, but i have the certainty "19.5" is a very generous total and it will decrease, i don't hesitate bet and repeat bets on "under 19,5", "under 19" and even "under 18,5", because i know with experience that "18" is the total that corresponds to what they should offer just before start of match. And therefore just before start of the match when i bet on the other side i make a big surebet. In reality, even if i didn't place my bets immediately and didn't "move" the odds, they would move anyway , but more slowly , with all bets of customers... But i don't wait that all these bets make the total dicrease and i immeditely place my series of bets... I don't know if my example is very clear, i hope it is. All that to say there's absolutely no cheat, or no line manipulation in what i do: i simply take all valuebets i see, and as these are value bets, of course odds will turn then and i'll be able to make a benefit betting on the other side, always with Pinnacle. But very recently they had found a way to prevent me from placing very quick series of bets (i had posted on the forum to explain that special treatment i received from Pinnacle): they recently instaured system that made that systematicaly after every one of my bets on tennis there was an "offline", all lines on the match disappear, that prevents me to place several bets consecutively on the same selection, and that let them the time they need to reevaluate the line/odds. But their system had its limit/was quite strange, because that offered me immediate surebets!? Let's take a match for example where i consider total "over 18,5" odd 2,05 is generous (value bet). I place my bet on over18,5 odd 2,05. Then, as i told you, impossible to place a second consecutive bet on "over18,5", they make line disappear (offline), and when line appear again one minute later, they considerably decrease odd for "over 18,5", so that i stop betting on it (for example after a siple bet of 250 euros odd on "over 18,5" decrease from 2,05 to 1.9), which means they now offer a "under 18,5 games" with a high odd ! (2.00 for example). So, to sum up, i place bet on a side odd 2,05, and to prevent me to insist on that selection they make offline and when line appear again they propose the other side odd 2.00 !! What should i do ???They immediately offer me surebet ! Should i refuse it ?? Is it a crime or line manipulation to bet on "under18,5 odd 2.00" immediately after i had bet on "over18.5" odd 2.05 ?? As far as i'm concerned, i consider that if there's line manipulation, that 's from their side: they manipulate lines to prevent me from betting on a side (side of the value bet), all i do is i say "ok, i won't insist on that side, i'll immediately trade with the other side as you offer me odds that guarantee me benefit...". All that is the truth, there's nothing more, nothing less. That's what they blame me for. As i said before i've nothing to hide and would accept with no problem that SBR management takes a look at my bets and account with Pinnacle. The fact is i'm not a customer that will lose money with Pinny, every month i earn thousands of euros with them, so i can understand they want to see me out, but i had always believed Pinnacle was a particular bookmaker that couldn't fire customers that way like other bookmakers do with people who earn too much. I made mistake: it seems Pinny too now decides to fire customers unfairly.

**zlatan25** · 10-15-15, 01:28 AM

I precise however they remain honest as they've already paid me immediately withdrawal of 37000 euros in the night. For the remaining of my balance i have to wait that my remaining pending bets (on tennis matches today) are graded.

**zlatan25** · 10-15-15, 01:31 AM

For people who sent me private messages, sorry but i can answer , automatic message says "To be able to send PMs your post count must be 40 or greater", so i think it means i haven't posted enough on forum yet to be able to send PMs.

**dealer wins** · 10-15-15, 01:54 AM

You can very occasionally manipulate pinny lines by betting max on early events then immediately betting max on the other side to create a profit. That will get you banned immediately just like our OP im guessing.

**Optional** · 10-15-15, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by zlatan25

You're right Optional, you point the real problem for them. Of course create the trade opportunity at Pinnacle is possible, i would even say that's very easy, for someone who immediately recognizes value bets. I have experience enough with Pinnacle to know/guess what game spread/total games (for tennis match) will be at the very end, i mean just before match start. So when Pinny for example starts displaying a line for total games with "over/under 19.5 games" for example, but i have the certainty "19.5" is a very generous total and it will decrease, i don't hesitate bet and repeat bets on "under 19,5", "under 19" and even "under 18,5", because i know with experience that "18" is the total that corresponds to what they should offer just before start of match. And therefore just before start of the match when i bet on the other side i make a big surebet. In reality, even if i didn't place my bets immediately and didn't "move" the odds, they would move anyway , but more slowly , with all bets of customers... But i don't wait that all these bets make the total dicrease and i immeditely place my series of bets... I don't know if my example is very clear, i hope it is. All that to say there's absolutely no cheat, or no line manipulation in what i do: i simply take all valuebets i see, and as these are value bets, of course odds will turn then and i'll be able to make a benefit betting on the other side, always with Pinnacle. But very recently they had found a way to prevent me from placing very quick series of bets (i had posted on the forum to explain that special treatment i received from Pinnacle): they recently instaured system that made that systematicaly after every one of my bets on tennis there was an "offline", all lines on the match disappear, that prevents me to place several bets consecutively on the same selection, and that let them the time they need to reevaluate the line/odds. But their system had its limit/was quite strange, because that offered me immediate surebets!? Let's take a match for example where i consider total "over 18,5" odd 2,05 is generous (value bet). I place my bet on over18,5 odd 2,05. Then, as i told you, impossible to place a second consecutive bet on "over18,5", they make line disappear (offline), and when line appear again one minute later, they considerably decrease odd for "over 18,5", so that i stop betting on it (for example after a siple bet of 250 euros odd on "over 18,5" decrease from 2,05 to 1.9), which means they now offer a "under 18,5 games" with a high odd ! (2.00 for example). So, to sum up, i place bet on a side odd 2,05, and to prevent me to insist on that selection they make offline and when line appear again they propose the other side odd 2.00 !! What should i do ???They immediately offer me surebet ! Should i refuse it ?? Is it a crime or line manipulation to bet on "under18,5 odd 2.00" immediately after i had bet on "over18.5" odd 2.05 ?? As far as i'm concerned, i consider that if there's line manipulation, that 's from their side: they manipulate lines to prevent me from betting on a side (side of the value bet), all i do is i say "ok, i won't insist on that side, i'll immediately trade with the other side as you offer me odds that guarantee me benefit...". All that is the truth, there's nothing more, nothing less. That's what they blame me for. As i said before i've nothing to hide and would accept with no problem that SBR management takes a look at my bets and account with Pinnacle. The fact is i'm not a customer that will lose money with Pinny, every month i earn thousands of euros with them, so i can understand they want to see me out, but i had always believed Pinnacle was a particular bookmaker that couldn't fire customers that way like other bookmakers do with people who earn too much. I made mistake: it seems Pinny too now decides to fire customers unfairly.

Well you sound open and honest about it so hopefully they take that into account. But if I am understanding you fully that sounds like a bit of an exploitable 'flaw' in their automated player management system so not too surprised they are cracking down on it.

Maybe you can appeal to them that you had no bad intent and would be happy to avoid doing whatever it is exactly that is bothering them if you can keep your account?

Otherwise you can always move onto a broker account to use them. You won't move lines there but you should have bigger limits.

**zlatan25** · 10-15-15, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by Optional

Well you sound open and honest about it so hopefully they take that into account. But if I am understanding you fully that sounds like a bit of an exploitable 'flaw' in their automated player management system so not too surprised they are cracking down on it.

Maybe you can appeal to them that you had no bad intent and would be happy to avoid doing whatever it is exactly that is bothering them if you can keep your account?

Otherwise you can always move onto a broker account to use them. You won't move lines there but you should have bigger limits.

Why do you say "you won't move lines there" Optionnal? When one place good value bet with broker account i suppose that is the same thing, odds will change, won't they?

**Limited** · 10-15-15, 03:06 AM

Zlatan, just a question, if you always know what is an generous early offer in tennis and you are always able to spot a value before it is pointed out by the market, then you must be very experienced or maybe have internal info. If this is the case, why you just don't cover other side at exchanges? Lines on exchanges just before the match are pretty similar to those of Pin, sometimes even better (IE Matchbook). Don't say you cant cover elsewhere, because of specific points IE U/O 19,5 only available in Pin. I am sure you know how to address this minor issue.

**Optional** · 10-15-15, 03:15 AM

Originally posted by zlatan25

Why do you say "you won't move lines there" Optionnal? When one place good value bet with broker account i suppose that is the same thing, odds will change, won't they?

Because you will just have a regular vanilla account via a broker and bets made with these accounts don't move the lines like your direct account does.

The players Pinny classify as sharp move lines like you do. The rest of us don't.

**Hareeba!** · 10-15-15, 03:37 AM

Very interesting thread. Didn't really realise it was possible to deliberately create opportunities such as this.

What I find disappointing is that Pinnacle would just close the guy down rather than issue a warning not to do it again. One strike and you're out doesn't appear very fair to me.

Using Betfair and Matchbook to play the other side one would think he could get close to the same outcome more often than not?

**dealer wins** · 10-15-15, 04:19 AM

I would strongly advise you to NOT use an agent. The agent will have NO control over Pinnacle's decisions and cannot intervene in any grading disputes, voided or cancelled bets etc. This is in the agent's T&Cs and I have experienced it once personally when Pinnacle voided a bet placed about 10 seconds before a darts match started. Pinny voided claiming it had already commenced.

My agent (Premium Tradings) unfortunately have no control over the grading which I fully accepted. If you are willing to take a chance PT are superb, but like I say can do nothing about any grading issues!

**zlatan25** · 10-15-15, 05:02 AM

Originally posted by dealer wins

I would strongly advise you to NOT use an agent. The agent will have NO control over Pinnacle's decisions and cannot intervene in any grading disputes, voided or cancelled bets etc. This is in the agent's T&Cs and I have experienced it once personally when Pinnacle voided a bet placed about 10 seconds before a darts match started. Pinny voided claiming it had already commenced.

My agent (Premium Tradings) unfortunately have no control over the grading which I fully accepted. If you are willing to take a chance PT are superb, but like I say can do nothing about any grading issues!

when you say "agent" you mean "broker", is it exact/the same ? But supposing you have an important issue with a bookmaker that refuses to pay you withdrawal (exemple: 20000 euros on an account opened by a Broker), what can you do ? In that situation won't the broker contact the bookamker to try to fix the issue?? Or isn't it possible to submit complaints on SBR for accounts that have been opened with brokers too??

**zlatan25** · 10-15-15, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by Optional

Well you sound open and honest about it so hopefully they take that into account. But if I am understanding you fully that sounds like a bit of an exploitable 'flaw' in their automated player management system so not too surprised they are cracking down on it.

Maybe you can appeal to them that you had no bad intent and would be happy to avoid doing whatever it is exactly that is bothering them if you can keep your account?

Otherwise you can always move onto a broker account to use them. You won't move lines there but you should have bigger limits.

No risk opening an account with a broker??

**zlatan25** · 10-15-15, 05:12 AM

Originally posted by Limited

Zlatan, just a question, if you always know what is an generous early offer in tennis and you are always able to spot a value before it is pointed out by the market, then you must be very experienced or maybe have internal info. If this is the case, why you just don't cover other side at exchanges? Lines on exchanges just before the match are pretty similar to those of Pin, sometimes even better (IE Matchbook). Don't say you cant cover elsewhere, because of specific points IE U/O 19,5 only available in Pin. I am sure you know how to address this minor issue.

I can guarantee you that unfortunately, most often, for the type of bets i place and the amounts of my wagers Pinnacle is the only place i can cover on the other side. If i had had alternative i would have used it of course.

**Limited** · 10-15-15, 05:30 AM

I can guarantee you that unfortunately, most often, for the type of bets i place and the amounts of my wagers Pinnacle is the only place i can cover on the other side. If i had had alternative i would have used it of course.

Not that I dont believe you but what can be so special about the Pin early odds that you cant find other side in say BF/SBO/MB/many others just before the match. The Pin lines are very basic ones, no special props or so. You just have sets hdp, game hdp, fs and ml. Unless you bet on a specific hdp IE +3,5 where all other bookies are covering +4,5, you can always cover. But if you see value in +3,5 you will probably have same value in +4,5 and that one you can cover on all other bookies. Odds in Pin are logically related and value in one market will also mean value in another market, value in +3 will also mean there is value in +2, +1, +4....