PremiumTradings seized 153,355€ of me ( 66k+87k)

[moojoo]

Looks to me Omer is one stupid individual.Lets forget about 66k over 50/day. Why he dont continue working with them and withdraw 87 in smaller chunks. Instead being "sKrewed" for 66k,he is 153 in the hole.

P.s Optional,you did your best.

[thordin86]

At this point PremiumTradings paid Omer that 199k amount. He then re-deposited and continued using his betting accounts with them.

Really, he sent them more money and then went on complaining?

[Alfa1234]

Thank you very much for that thorough update, Optional.

[Grivas_Digeni]

You've never been on the other side of the counter, or did any significant business (through legally binding agreements/contracts), have you?

Move on, dummy.

"PremiumTradings say they feel like they acted in an unprecedented generous manner"

[omer87]

Hello dear friends and Option,

I would like thank Option for his interest and all the users who are following the case.

Option, you are typing what PT tells you but all of them are lies.

I am saying that with all my heart; PT is a big liar.

I have never seen this rule and it has never existed for sure. The relevant user had been betting for big amounts. If they reopen my account I can prove this.

They also went too far and sent forged documents to Option. Why they didn't mention the screenshot that they had sent you. Since it is a forged screenshot... I didn't accept such an absurd agreement. Would you accept it?

I want to ask that; Why should I take risk if I accepted this agreement? Why should I let users' bets?

In Arbusers forum, admin had deleted some posts and then completely deleted the topic because there was all the evidence against PT's lies.

They lost 66000€ due to their risk, so where is 87000€? They closed all my accounts without any explanation.

If I don't get a positive reply from PT, I am going to do a detailed explanation on Wednesday.

[evo34]

You've never been on the other side of the counter, or did any significant business (through legally binding agreements/contracts), have you?

Move on, dummy.

If only you knew

[Optional]

Hello dear friends and Option,

I would like thank Option for his interest and all the users who are following the case.

Option, you are typing what PT tells you but all of them are lies.

I am saying that with all my heart; PT is a big liar.

I have never seen this rule and it has never existed for sure. The relevant user had been betting for big amounts. If they reopen my account I can prove this.

They also went too far and sent forged documents to Option. Why they didn't mention the screenshot that they had sent you. Since it is a forged screenshot... I didn't accept such an absurd agreement. Would you accept it?

I want to ask that; Why should I take risk if I accepted this agreement? Why should I let users' bets?

In Arbusers forum, admin had deleted some posts and then completely deleted the topic because there was all the evidence against PT's lies.

They lost 66000€ due to their risk, so where is 87000€? They closed all my accounts without any explanation.

If I don't get a positive reply from PT, I am going to do a detailed explanation on Wednesday.

It's less about if you were aware as much as should you have been aware. I do believe you saying you did not know, but I also believe them saying the term legally was in place.

There may be some technical legal argument you can mount but I really think you need to engage a lawyer now if you are to have any chance of seeing money back. I think if you find a Turkish speaking lawyer in the UK and ask them to assess your chances and advise if legal action is viable, it will not cost a lot of money.

I did ask PT to check if any of your sub-accounts had ever won this amount before and they claim they have not.

And I did read the arbusers thread and didn't see any other evidence to help your case that I didn't mention.

I know it seems like a big hassle but for the amount involved you really do need proper personal legal advice as I just see no way to come to a negotiated settlement anymore.

[allabout the $$$]

opti is the fukkin man. great guy and always trying to help out

[betakos]

Hello dear friends and Option,

I would like thank Option for his interest and all the users who are following the case.

Option, you are typing what PT tells you but all of them are lies.

I am saying that with all my heart; PT is a big liar.

I have never seen this rule and it has never existed for sure. The relevant user had been betting for big amounts. If they reopen my account I can prove this.

They also went too far and sent forged documents to Option. Why they didn't mention the screenshot that they had sent you. Since it is a forged screenshot... I didn't accept such an absurd agreement. Would you accept it?

I want to ask that; Why should I take risk if I accepted this agreement? Why should I let users' bets?

In Arbusers forum, admin had deleted some posts and then completely deleted the topic because there was all the evidence against PT's lies.

They lost 66000€ due to their risk, so where is 87000€? They closed all my accounts without any explanation.

If I don't get a positive reply from PT, I am going to do a detailed explanation on Wednesday.

Omer i've already mentioned that despite the good intentions SBR is in no place to force anything although i am quite surprised that they didn't brought the matter on the their home page since they have no right to take the 87k. You should make a complain with their regulator as Optional mentioned and take the case with the Curacao gambling commission (something that you should have started with).

When they updated the services and prompted you to accept them, where the changes, inc the 50k, clearly stated (highlighted, different colour etc) or they just throw all the pages of the T&C (in that case, from a law point of view you have a strong case for the 66k) plus when enforcing such term, the PT should have the mechanism to at least warn their clients when they reach the limit (again you have a very strong case too) or else they can't force it. You should get a lawyer for this (66k).

As for the 87k, when they force you to signed the new contract was there a term that they will confiscate your balance? If not they have no right to do so (and even if there was such term, it's illegal from a law point of view).

[thordin86]

If your client's bets were always large in the past, meaning winnings would exceed the limit, and they never warned about it, never mentioned it, it is clear they were hiding the term.

[MaxShalamar]

If your client's bets were always large in the past, meaning winnings would exceed the limit, and they never warned about it, never mentioned it, it is clear they were hiding the term.

Yup - it seems very clear that PT were happy for the client to bet those amounts but as soon as the bets started to win they invoked their "rule" so was it intentional? - only they know for sure - certainly unethical at the very least even if that rule existed before they took the money

[Alfa1234]

A lot of bookies in the world accept bets that exceed their max win limit.

As stated numerous times above, PT did not accept those bets. Pinnacle did. There is no way for PT to limit or control the bets their users place in a Pinnacle account they provide.

[MaxShalamar]

A lot of bookies in the world accept bets that exceed their max win limit.

As stated numerous times above, PT did not accept those bets. Pinnacle did. There is no way for PT to limit or control the bets their users place in a Pinnacle account they provide.

So as it stands - PT allow the customer to place bets that will go over their payout limit, Pinny accept the bet, Pinny pays out the full amount of the bet but PT does not allow their customer to receive the full winnings ..... and people think that is fine?

So where exactly does the excess that Pinny is paying out go? Because it doesn't go to the customer does it?

[Alfa1234]

You know the answer, with all the details and implications. No point in reitterating it all again.

[MaxShalamar]

You know the answer, with all the details and implications. No point in reitterating it all again.

No I don't know the answer - WHY are people betting these amounts when they won't get a full return on their bets?

If I spend £50k on a new car do I get it complete or does the dealer say "we can only give you the car but we won't give you the wheels because that would make the car weigh too much" - WHO benefits from the limit? - Pinny pays out the full amount don't they? So where does the excess go? - Obviously PT keeps it

Anyway - penetrate it - not my problem and if you want to defend them that's your choice - lets hope you don't get rolled over by them but I doubt you are doing any decent volume anyway so you don't give a shit either way

I'm off on part 2 of my holiday in the morning

[Alfa1234]

No I don't know the answer - WHY are people betting these amounts when they won't get a full return on their bets?

If I spend £50k on a new car do I get it complete or does the dealer say "we can only give you the car but we won't give you the wheels because that would make the car weigh too much" - WHO benefits from the limit? - Pinny pays out the full amount don't they? So where does the excess go? - Obviously PT keeps it

Anyway - penetrate it - not my problem and if you want to defend them that's your choice - lets hope you don't get rolled over by them but I doubt you are doing any decent volume anyway so you don't give a shit either way

I'm off on part 2 of my holiday in the morning

Simple answer in this case, and if you had read the thread in full detail you would know it: Omer didn't tell his client about the rule. If he did that deliberately or simply didn't realise the rule was in place, we do not know. I tend to agree with Optional he probably didn't realise the rule was there, but it's still 100% his mistake if that were to be true.

And you have absolutely 0 idea about the volumes I put through my PT accounts or the contract I have with them, so you shouldn't assume anything.

Enjoy the rest of your trip.

[Optional]

So as it stands - PT allow the customer to place bets that will go over their payout limit, Pinny accept the bet, Pinny pays out the full amount of the bet but PT does not allow their customer to receive the full winnings ..... and people think that is fine?

So where exactly does the excess that Pinny is paying out go? Because it doesn't go to the customer does it?

It says on the PremiumTradings rule page that they keep anything over the 50k/day.

[Grivas_Digeni]

I think this deserves a closer look.

I hope you can/are willing to share this, either in thread or by PM. My question is: if you mean 'accept bets AND pay them in full, *without* keeping the 'extra' money', could you give a couple examples from personal experience or people you know/trust?

To me, this is new. I would assume only someone very stupid would knowingly place a bet if he knows he will get a 'car without the wheels', to use a previous poster's example. If the bolded statement means that many bookies accept such bets, to only cheat the client by invoking some bean counting piece of their T&C - I understand and accept that. Don't be a sucker, heh.

But if you know of examples where books state one thing in their T&C, and routinely (sometimes?) allow all (some?) customers to place bets exceeding max win limit *and* pay these bets in full, as if those limits never existed, I'd like to know.

ps This thread is on track for the SBR HoF if there is such a thing.

A lot of bookies in the world accept bets that exceed their max win limit.
As stated numerous times above, PT did not accept those bets. Pinnacle did. There is no way for PT to limit or control the bets their users place in a Pinnacle account they provide.

[Alfa1234]

I meant that they will accept the bet, I don't know of any that'll also pay out over their win limit. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Look at the T&C of some bookies. It usually involves a large parlay win that hits and you bet it for a few euros. Bookies put the limit in place to avoid taking too hard a hit. They'll happily accept the bet though.

http://www.maxpayout.co.uk/

A lot of smaller local bookies have this as well (e.g. I know the Stanleybet win limit is 150k per ticket).

In this case, PT did initially pay out above their win limit though...

[dealer wins]

On many Pinbet88 lines you can bet a max of £20000 even at odds of say 10/1 on major events, but if I did my agent would limit the win to £50000 so it would be crazy to do this bet.

[MaxShalamar]

I meant that they will accept the bet, I don't know of any that'll also pay out over their win limit. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Look at the T&C of some bookies. It usually involves a large parlay win that hits and you bet it for a few euros. Bookies put the limit in place to avoid taking too hard a hit. They'll happily accept the bet though.

http://www.maxpayout.co.uk/

A lot of smaller local bookies have this as well (e.g. I know the Stanleybet win limit is 150k per ticket).

In this case, PT did initially pay out above their win limit though...

Yes we all know that bookies have limits on accas but if I place a bet of £100k on an evens shot and only get back half the profit that is clearly wrong if PT keep half my winnings - surely even you can see that

[Alfa1234]

No, I can't see that. What is the difference between placing a 100k bet or a 5€ parlay bet that hits? Either way you are screwed and should have informed yourself of the rules before placing that bet...you just assume it's different because of the odds involved, but it's the same thing and you would feel equally screwed if your regular bookie took 200k out of your 350k parlay win.

I "get" what you mean because it's an agent and you feel like different rules should apply, but they simply don't.

[Grumsi]

This is outrageous! We, the people should fight against such scams, we should make every bookmaker to have an automatic system that will reject the bet if payout exceeds the daily limit, there is no question about that. And when i say fight, i literally mean that. Every bookmaker that dont have this automatic system should be warned on a daily basis by everyone, until we get somewhere!

And if they dont implement the fair system, these bookmakers should be avoid at all cost, they have a competition too, so I am sure we, who want this to be fair to all, can change this industry, but we will never change it if we keep listen to those shills. We, the people, the common gamblers, are here to make this industry fair.

You should all be aware that about 50% of people here are bookmaker's shills, they are making money because you are losing and they welcome such rules, more you lose more they win. Therefore you should take 50% of posts here with a pinch of salt, those post are coming from greedy shills who are having a piece of their pie.

I am aware that most of people here are Americans, and they are already happy to have a place to gamble, because it is illegal to gamble in USA, but come on, believe me when i say this, you will always find a place to gamble, gambling will not dissapear, but because you are turning a blind eye, this industry can have those scammy T & C and because of those they are literally robbing you for having just a bit of fun.

So if you are not a shill, please fight together with me against this! At first it will be just you and me, but if we stand together, we will get more people joining us and slowly we can change this industry into a much better place. Identify the shills, ignore them, mock their greediness and fight on. They cant stop us!!

And aboud this thread... you know on which side we stand!!

[tsty]

lol@thievery being supported

I hope that shill money helps you sleep at night boyos

[betakos]

and Omer once more disappeared without an update. Did they make a deal or something?

[Abettor]

I felt the need to register an account to say that I fully endorse and support Grumsi's view. I mean, you guys do have an idea of the money bookies make, right? They have plenty of room for improvements and for making things fair for punters... of course they won't unless they are strongly pressed into doing so, not unlike any other current or past company/business. That's where we come into scene, my view is that if we want things to improve, we need to, as a community, always support the punter by all means and NEVER the scammer.

[Grumsi]

Hello Abettor, I have to say I am glad to see that you registered for the purpose to fight against all these scams in this industry. Thank you, you are the man!

As you can see, they are scamming us on a daily basis, people is getting robbed for huge chunks of money and most of the time instead of getting help and support to fight his money back, more or less he get labelled either as stupid to bet there, or labeled as a scammer himself! That way we will not change anything!

You can see bookmakers are competeing with each other who will get away with even more scammy T&C, therefore for other bookmaker to be able to compete they have to introduce those scammy T&C too! And we are going like this for years...
Now we almost don't stand a chance to see our money just if bookmaker decide that they want our money. They have all sorts of terms that at first look dont seem to be harmful, but those terms are there not to fight against money laundrying or frauds (No!! These terms are there just in case if you win too much, they can easily acuse you of anything and you have to say goodbye to your rightfully earned money!) One good example is match fixing, in case you will unfortunately place your wager on a suspicious match, you are a toast.. All your balance (your family's food and bills) gets locked just for a suspicion!! That is outrageous! They should pay anyone until proven guilty in court, how come they could just lock someone's money?

We have to stop them, get those T&C to protect our money or we will not play there! We have to push them hard, so bookmakers will start to listen to us if they will want to keep their base of players, and those T&C will start to be changing in our favour. Unless we will push them hard, those terms will be getting worse!

At this moment everytime you deposit to a book, there is a risk you won't see your money again if they wanted so, and they think noone will stop them! They are wrong!

I know there are plenty of people out there who will join us in this fight, and I am 100% justice will prevail, and people will win this fight, we just have to start fighting back, now is the time!

[Alfa1234]

Before you start your crusade, consider this:

Has any-one ever forced you to register, deposit or bet at a bookmaker or have you only ever done so out of your free will without being coerced?

.
.
.

Didn't think so. You have the right to play, but if you do...you have to follow their rules. If you don't like those rules, you are free to walk away.

[Grumsi]

What are you afraid of, shill? That we may change bookmaker's T&C for being fair to all? I see.
I think it is meanless for you to involve in this fight, there is nothing else but a defeat for you. The fight is on, and we will get what we should be having from begining. It started...

[Alfa1234]

Please continue to update us with your progress regarding this matter.

[Grumsi]

You will get updated every month when your shill money will start dissapearing.

[Alfa1234]

I think you have good intentions, but you should also get a little reality check.

If you want to change the T&C of every bookmaker and make it "fair" (fair in your eyes), you have 2 options:

1. Take legal action in every jurisdiction there are bookmakers registered and force them to change their T&C that way. This is impossible in practice because it would cost a fortune in legal fees and there is absolutely no guarantee you would manage to win anything in court because the vast majority of T&C's those bookmakers have, are not against the law.

2. Get enough of their clients to walk away from those bookies so they are forced to change those points in their T&C, that those clients do not agree with. This is also not possible in practice because the vast majority of bookie players are happy with the services they get...if they weren't happy they would not be playing there or simply change bookies after a while. The simple fact that those bookies that have been around for a few years have clients right now and make money means that they have happy customers. Happy customers do not run away en masse.

[Abettor]

That is certainly one hell of a stupid way of reasoning, Alfa1234. Them having abusive T&C does not mean we just have to take it or leave it. We certainly can and must try to change it towards a more fair situation. Let me put it another way, I hope you will understand the exageration:

Has any-one ever forced you to enter, buy and eat a hamburger at your local mcdonalds or have you only ever done so out of your free will without being coerced?

However... what do you do if such hamburger is poisoned and kills someone close to you? Do you "play by their rules"? Sure not. They are obliged to provide 'decent' food and you know that. It's a regulated business. Same should apply to such an unregulated industry as currently is gambling, customers should have some degree of protection so as to know that they can deposit and withdraw without being scammed for random reasons, like Grumsi explained. That's what this fight is about and I don't think it's something extraordinary to ask.

Better if you don't even answer and save yourself and everybody else some time. You have already shown which side you stand on, certainly because you are receiving money from bookies, so noone will actually take you seriously.

As for Grumsi: I couln't agree more mate. It's just plain outrageous, it's an abuse after an abuse after an abuse, on a daily basis. We need to improve lots of things, but it's difficult to properly lead a fight against them... isolated cases do not seem to have enough strength to make an impact, and then it's difficult for many people to join forces because it's not many people who get scammed (it's mostly only the winners!). So not easy. How to proceed?

Thanks

EDIT: Seems we wrote at the same time. Now that last one I think is a meaningful post, Alfa1234, instead of saying 'it's their rules, take it or leave it'. Good to see that. Should their T&C be changed towards a more fair situation? YES. Do we have the possibility to do it? Probably not, like you explained.

[Alfa1234]

Has any-one ever forced you to enter, buy and eat a hamburger at your local mcdonalds or have you only ever done so out of your free will without being coerced?

However... what do you do if such hamburger is poisoned and kills someone close to you? Do you "play by their rules"? Sure not. They are obliged to provide 'decent' food and you know that. It's a regulated business. Same should apply to such an unregulated industry as currently is gambling, customers should have some degree of protection so as to know that they can deposit and withdraw without being scammed for random reasons, like Grumsi explained. That's what this fight is about and I don't think it's something extraordinary to ask.


Thanks

EDIT: Seems we wrote at the same time. Now that last one I think is a meaningful post, Alfa1234, instead of saying 'it's their rules, take it or leave it'. Good to see that. Should their T&C be changed towards a more fair situation? YES. Do we have the possibility to do it? Probably not, like you explained.

Thanks for that last comment.

I do not agree at all with the hamburger analogy though. When you get a burger, you already know what's in it and are able to find out the ingredients. If the place you buy the burger from changes those ingredients and it kills someone, this is against the law. It's not in the T&C of the burger place that burger would kill you so they broke the contract you had with them. It's different at bookies because you know their T&C beforehand and agree to it while your register. In the burger analogy, 1 party broke the T&C after the deal was "signed".

Some bookies abuse T&C's sometimes though and I agree that should be stopped, but I also think the vast majority of bookmakers have T&C's that are fair and they simply put some conditions in place to stop users from abusing them (like multi-accounting, bonus abuses etc)...without those protections most bookies would simply go under and there would be none left after a while. I inherantly believe most bookmakers are fair, but there are always some rotten apples amongst them.

[omer87]

Hi guys

I cannot contact to PT anymore. The last thing they have done is to seize extra 87,000€ of me and they are still playing dead. As I understand, they worked on producing some fake documents meanwhile and sent them to SBR admin in order to persuade him that they are the right ones. What a shame! They need to account for this seizure. I need support from all the users here. NEVER WORK WITH PT & please announce everyone next to you that PT is a SWINDLING FIRM. They have also seized another amount from one of my friend's account.

PT has seized the money that PinnacleSports paid to my account showing irrelevant things. They lastly closed my agency accounts seizing 87,000€ that stays inside the accounts. They do not have right to do this. Because PT is an agency.

I am investigating on this issue and will request them once more to make the payment. If they do not make the payment; I will want all of your support in order to close their agency account. Because they do not have right to seize my money!!!

I am reading all of your messages; in the near future I will give you a more detailed explanation to all of you.