Betfair complaint.

**Optional** · 02-23-23, 10:00 AM

Betfair are correct.

If home and away teams are listed in reverse then betting is void.

This is a normal rule at bookmakers too.

If they did not void all bets the losers would have good legal grounds to complain they should be voided after the result is known.

**Lurk1976** · 02-23-23, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by Optional

Betfair are correct.

If home and away teams are listed in reverse then betting is void.

This is a normal rule at bookmakers too.

If they did not void all bets the losers would have good legal grounds to complain they should be voided after the result is known.

sorry, but they played on neutral ground. theres no home or away team.
start on their web page have that start is a home team, oslo on their page have that oslo is home team.
again, this is friendly match played on the neutral ground in other country.
all bookies in the world would not refund this situation

**Optional** · 02-23-23, 10:12 AM

Sorry, but there is always a nominated home and away team.

If Betfair somehow reversed them during a time period that you bet, then they should void all betting like they did.

Again, people who know the rules would take advantage of the situation if they did not void.

Have you taken up Betfairs offer to accept a dispute resolution code to take the question to third party mediation?

**Lurk1976** · 02-23-23, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Optional

Sorry, but there is always a nominated home and away team.

If Betfair somehow reversed them during a time period that you bet, then they should void all betting like they did.

Again, people who know the rules would take advantage of the situation if they did not void.

Have you taken up Betfairs offer to accept a dispute resolution code to take the question to third party mediation?

im not sure abot that.
however this is the rule which they totally ignore:

If the venue of a match is other than is indicated on our website, the bet will stand provided the match has not been switched to the opponent's ground, in which case the match will be declared void. Notwithstanding this rule, in major international tournaments (eg World Cup, European Championships), all venues will be deemed neutral. If the scheduled venue of a match is changed, including if the venue changes to a new venue in a different country, all bets will stand.

**Optional** · 02-23-23, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by Lurk1976

im not sure abot that.
however this is the rule which they totally ignore:

If the venue of a match is other than is indicated on our website, the bet will stand provided the match has not been switched to the opponent's ground, in which case the match will be declared void. Notwithstanding this rule, in major international tournaments (eg World Cup, European Championships), all venues will be deemed neutral. If the scheduled venue of a match is changed, including if the venue changes to a new venue in a different country, all bets will stand.

I understand your logic. But for betting purposes, even in World Cup matches, one team is declared home and listed first. All sorts of backend systems rely on this being correct and bettors can successfully claim it caused confusion and regualtors will uphold the void request. So if a savvy bettor sees an error the book has missed they can bet on it with the knowledge they have a good chance to claim a refund if it loses.

It's safe to take the complaint code and submit it to their ADR service. It won't affect you negatively or cost you anything. And who knows, you may get lucky and have your claim upheld.

Persoanlly, I would take the 60 pounds though.

**Alfie White** · 02-23-23, 10:30 AM

You are ignoring 1 fact, "the match/market had been listed incorrectly as IK Start v Kfum Oslo between 12:06:38 and 12:14:05". That means all the odds were incorrect in that timeframe and potentially misled traders.

Can you show us the bet please? Was it live bet or pregame one? (not sure about the timezones etc)

**Lurk1976** · 02-23-23, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Alfie White

You are ignoring 1 fact, "the match/market had been listed incorrectly as IK Start v Kfum Oslo between 12:06:38 and 12:14:05". That means all the odds were incorrect in that timeframe and potentially misled traders.

Can you show us the bet please? Was it live bet or pregame one? (not sure about the timezones etc)

it was inplay bet, over 1.5 1st half
Ok, guys lets say that you and batfair are right. Who can declare which team is home and which away if one team have on their webpage that they are home team and other team that they are home team in training match?

how they at 25th minute find out that they have wrong home or away? and who can determine home or away team. for example provider from which they take the data had start as home team and few more bookies where i had bet settled normally without refund.

**cashin81** · 02-23-23, 11:34 AM

On neutral different books have home and away teams... because it doesn't matter...

How does it matter?

Also it was in play,

**cashin81** · 02-23-23, 11:35 AM

Better explanation would have been the book didnt know neutral

**cashin81** · 02-23-23, 11:52 AM

Lets say, in play, one book has

Start v kfum , another has Kfum v start. odds are similar.

where do I play?

**Alfie White** · 02-23-23, 12:02 PM

You make arbitrage bets on that an another bookmaker, where teams are swapped and then you complain on SBR when they void the winning bet. This is the way.

**cashin81** · 02-23-23, 12:03 PM

The odds are the same.......

**cashin81** · 02-23-23, 12:03 PM

you can swap teams, doesnt matter on neutral.

**Lurk1976** · 02-23-23, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by cashin81

Better explanation would have been the book didnt know neutral

thats the reason why this case i find it totally insane. they know that match was in spain, neutral ground.
if you read ther rules even in that case they dont have a right to void, just in case that match was played on ground from away team, then should go refund

**cashin81** · 02-23-23, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Lurk1976

thats the reason why this case i find it totally insane. they know that match was in spain, neutral ground.
if you read ther rules even in that case they dont have a right to void, just in case that match was played on ground from away team, then should go refund

Most side with the book on here. It also mentions "reasonable" in the rules..
Its unreasonable that the player should use some sort of magic to know which side should listed as home for a one off friendly game on neutral. Its furthermore more unreasonable to void a bet because of this when it has no bearing on odds.

Thats providing your odds were fair and reflected neutral venue odds (and not home/away)

**Optional** · 02-23-23, 02:21 PM

It's not about the odds Cashin.

It's about the bet listing being incorrect enough that it could cause confusion. And on Betfair with so many trading bots it would cause more confusion than most books swapping the teams back and forth twice.

And I am offering the facts to him. Not siding with anyone. You are talking about how you feel about it. It sucks for him but it's a valid void.

He can take 60 pounds or have an ADR service look at his claim. So if I am wrong he still can get paid.

**cashin81** · 02-23-23, 02:52 PM

why would it confuse someone? What difference would it have made , Start v kfum , Kfum v start

**cashin81** · 02-23-23, 02:53 PM

Who dictates who is listed at home in a neutral friendly...

**cashin81** · 02-23-23, 03:19 PM

Start - KFUM Oslo 5:4

https://www.flashscore.com/match/h2ZhBjMu/#/odds-comparison/1x2-odds/full-time

WORLD: Club Friendly

https://www.sofascore.com/kfum-oslo-ik-start/rnsLp

if its that most had start as home.

**Lurk1976** · 02-23-23, 03:32 PM

If an incorrect team or competitor name is displayed (excluding minor spelling mistakes) or the incorrect number of teams, competitors or outcomes is displayed in any complete market or a market is otherwise loaded using incorrect information (for example the application of an incorrect exposure algorithm or a cross matching tool utilising an incorrect algorithm) or includes any obvious error such as the incorrect deployment of the cross matching tool, then Betfair reserves the right to suspend the market and (providing it acts reasonably) to void all bets matched on the market.

based on this rule, they voided my bet, do you see here any word about home/away, reversing teams etc?
Did they have incorrect name of the one club or something?

**Alfie White** · 02-23-23, 03:55 PM

Take them to Strasbourg court, you have a case here 100%.

**cashin81** · 02-23-23, 05:50 PM

They could just say wrong listing for any friendly on neutral.

**Alfie White** · 02-24-23, 01:30 AM

War crimes.

**cashin81** · 02-24-23, 07:57 AM

great debate

**Alfie White** · 02-24-23, 11:10 AM

Well if you (you and op) would be able to comprehend what I am saying, then we can have a debate, like this it is pointless. I am not Betfair, I don't care, I didn't take any money for this.

Have fun!

**cashin81** · 02-24-23, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by Alfie White

Well if you (you and op) would be able to comprehend what I am saying, then we can have a debate, like this it is pointless. I am not Betfair, I don't care, I didn't take any money for this.

Have fun!

I agree with you that if the teams were swapped and the odds therefore wrong, it should push. But it doesnt seem to be that.

Also, by this rule it means you should never bet a friendly on neutral as any book could just say listing error.

**chuda** · 02-24-23, 05:13 PM

everybody right in here...

but there is nothing much you can do against betfair
once you were signing up for betfair and ticked box, agree to terms n cond.. you signed for that miscellaneous rule as well.
part where it`s says : .. or a market is otherwise loaded using incorrect information (for example the application of an incorrect exposure algorithm or a cross matching tool utilising an incorrect algorithm) or includes any obvious error such as the incorrect deployment of the cross matching tool...

in this case "home" and "away" may mislead others, since in betfair exchange was such a market in play at a time as :
double chance : home or draw.. away or draw ... home or away markets
so anyone playing that market before 12:06:38 could of spot incorrect swap and use for their advantage ..
for example : withdraw money, and if bet would of win, claim that withdrawal of winning bet was forced by incorrect or misleading information provided, or any other way, it influenced your decisions...
as well as home and away side markets are color coded, and if by technical error , teams would be jumping in between colors trough out game, that wouldn`t end up well ..

if game information would be displayed from start to finish of market incorrectly, then could be a case for it to stand, as "simple" left and right display name displacement for event , would have no effect on odds or could not be misleading trough out game to participants in market.

ADR would see this rule as fair to consumer, as it would equally benefit for those who lose money or being mislead by incorrect information provided.

other part of that rule states ; Betfair reserves the right to suspend the market and (providing it acts reasonably) to void all bets matched on the market.
if you can prove, that Betfair "created" that error, to gain any benefit or favor to any side in betting outcome ..you will easy win..

as for home and away sides in neutral venues :
if team websites put them first in a sentence, it not deems them home or away
under FIFA rules, playing friendly in neutral venue, one team has to be "home" team, who will be acting as host team, and other team has to be "away" team who will act as visiting team.

this rule is created for FIFA regulations to be maintained in neutral venue friendly games, where FIFA rules for game are maintained and FIFA puts liability on host team to do so, and they can not be liable for any problems from it.
host team or home team, is responsible for liability of game arranged, host team has to do things like, submit time and venue to FIFA 2 months in advance, make sure pitch , venue, security , lighting , supporter teams places, visiting team training time and facilities are provided, commercial and media rights agreed between all parties and FIFA agreed.. so on and so on.
visiting team submits their 2 shirt colors 3 different gk shirt colors and shows up basically. (well there is bit more to it, but...)

**chuda** · 02-24-23, 05:43 PM

i know well , what is like to be winning bet, taking away , just because of their error ...

i lost heap of money just of VAR
all 4 most biggest VAR failures in EPL what happened in last 2 months, i was on loosing side on all 4 of them..
all those bets on sides are in my thread ..
manchester united - arsenal
arsenal - brentford
manchester united - leicester city
chelsea - west ham
pure outrage from community, but bets are settled and money gone..

i know once i made a big money on paddypower conundrum ..
live play on some columbian football ... 1-1 70+ min ... i am watching game live...
boom 2-1 ... 76`min ...
paddypower goes as it`s still 1-1 .. i am like , hell, gool is not disallowed, game is 2-3 min in continuous play ... tv "telmundo" or something shows 2-1 as well ...
i am thinking if they void then can void , but i will just lock on it..
and ...boom ...3-1 ...hell
86th minute..3-1 ... paddypower still 1-1 and bets for home side -1.5 handicap are at @19 of price
i make 2 bets.. home side and home side -1.5 ...
5 minutes later game finishes... another minute later bets settled as winner...
i am like... they will come back and take away from me ..soon...in 24hrs ... hmm .. maybe 48 hrs ... hmm...maybe 72 ...lol
won huge... hunting for something like this again since that day

**Lurk1976** · 02-24-23, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by chuda

in this case "home" and "away" may mislead others, since in betfair exchange was such a market in play at a time as :
double chance : home or draw.. away or draw ... home or away markets
so anyone playing that market before 12:06:38 could of spot incorrect swap and use for their advantage ..
for example : withdraw money, and if bet would of win, claim that withdrawal of winning bet was forced by incorrect or misleading information provided, or any other way, it influenced your decisions...
as well as home and away side markets are color coded, and if by technical error , teams would be jumping in between colors trough out game, that wouldn`t end up well ..

ok, one thing is not clear here. why betfair swap teams in the middle of the match? in the case that they had team start all the match as home or oslo team as home there will no any reason for anyone to made any complaint. where is that mind moment where someone sudenly said: hey, we have a wrong home/away team? why 99.9% bookies on the world have a rule that is not matter in friendly match, even on official matches where 2nd team in not home team in reallity. even if I come to terms with the fact that it actually exists in a game like this home/away why did they think that oslo was home when we have a bunch of web pages where is start team home team? betgenius was provider for this match and they have a start as home team. all other bookies settled corretctly this match and they had start as home team.
and finally, 3rd time, why this rule is not applied? this rule cant be clearer:

If the venue of a match is other than is indicated on our website, the bet will stand provided the match has not been switched to the opponent's ground, in which case the match will be declared void.

**chuda** · 02-25-23, 03:33 AM

i am completely agree with you and others here , that this particular mistake, what was made either by them, either by 3rd party delivering service or automated system, had no influence on odds, nor outcome of event or possibly even money transactions made, nor mislead you...
i am just saying they are covered here... by T&C, we all signing up for...

so even thou 99% of bookies will grant this bet as winner, you are under betfair rules here.
you have right to nit pick they msc 13 rule. i believe you will need big "sharks", because ADR`s wont go that way, who will take each sentence apart word by word and will prove that home side name displayed as away side should be not counted as either incorrect team nor incorrect name given...

bookies T&C`s have doubled n tripled in size in last decade, just to cover them from any angle, they have takin into consideration any previous dispute known , and have put that in t&c`s in such a way, that by agreeing to them, it gives them power to do whatever they want..

for us to win this war against bookies, which would involve , many unfortunate events for punters, what defies logic, what goes against them, because bookies has those tncs , we need to tackle consumer rights n customer laws they operate under. and that is mainly country specific.
so, lets unite, gather all thousands of cases n examples of frustrated bookie refusals to pay out in particular cases, sign a petition and propose rule change what would be fair for all parties involved in similar future events, and push forward in areas like, ausies n oceanica, americas and eu ...fk asia, that will never work there : D
basically change in terms their operate under , what gives them less monopoly rights of actions taken in edge cases and favors consumer right to object on reasonable grounds.
or .. if every one ever affected, what, had wrong bet settlement , went n file a case trough court, single handedly... i believe million cases + or - ...something would have to go and things would change... as either bookies couldn`t keep up handling those cases in timely manner, as time for settlement is on our side and usually has deadline 3 months in most areas. or they would suffer money loses , defending millions of cases and would have to come with something better than current rules they have concreted them selves in.

don`t americans usually put home side at a end of sentence .. and rest of world at start... who is right and does it make a difference..

**chuda** · 02-25-23, 03:47 AM

Originally posted by Lurk1976

I had reviewed with our trading department who have confirmed that this incorrect display error had occurred due to a technical issue.

if it`s technical issue, than it could and maybe should be proven by them to you thou, by providing log of system what made it happened.
since that is their ground they are defending their case.

otherwise their response in this is very vague
basically saying ..."some sort of technical issue occurred "and we have T^C`s for that...

so maybe you have right to takle/ask them to provide prof of that "Technical issue" and take from there

**cashin81** · 02-25-23, 08:33 AM

Their technical issue was given as this
Kfum Oslo v IK Start. Unfortunately due to a technical error, the match/market had been listed incorrectly as IK Start v Kfum Oslo between 12:06:38 and 12:14:05. Essentially, Kfum Oslo was supposed to appear as the 'home' team and IK Start as the 'away' team.

Despite multiple sources having start as home. If its true, then they should provide a source, otherwise any book could do this and you could never actually know who is at "home."

that rule is not for who should be at home in a friendly on neutral. Its for if a horse was listed racing at ascot instead of york, something more obvious and reasonable (in their own terms )to void

**cashin81** · 02-25-23, 08:37 AM

Also anyone who lost at another book on this should claim "listing error" as kfum should have been "home."

**Optional** · 02-25-23, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by cashin81

Also anyone who lost at another book on this should claim "listing error" as kfum should have been "home."

Worth a try if any book did reverse them.

And illustrates exactly why the void rule exists.