5Dimes stole 14 500 USD

[cyberinvestor]

cyberinvestor believe it or not some rules/laws are actually unfair, unconstitutional, and unenforceable and yes the person in the blue car will get off because of the above found this kind of amusing: http://civiced.rutgers.edu/NJ/LESSON...Rule_Jan07.pdf

Thanks for that article. Very good read!

I agree that rules and laws are unconsitutional or unfair in many cases. Hell, I would be out of a job if that were not the case (as would the Supreme Court).

The question in the 5Dimes case is whether their rules are unfair. It could be argued unfair in principle but it is not unfair in practice in my opinion. As any lawyer would say the key to arguing a law is the jurisdiction. If someone from the US smokes pot in Amsterdam, it's legal and the US cannot charge them for drug use. Under US law I think this rule, in this specific situation still stands. If the Supreme Court can say "no gays" in the Boy Scouts is allowed, I think they would say "no robots can play at 5Dimes". Just speculation though.

However what the US would do does not matter. The problem to everyone arguing the validity of the rule is 5Dimes is located in Costa Rica. Costa Rica has long said they will not deal in gaming/processing related disputes. So, Tony has carte blanche to create any rule, however crazy, and the only court he will be tried in would be the court of public opinion and SBR. His only penalty for stupid rules (although again I don't think the no bot rule is stupid) would be loss of business. Tony cannot make any rule, not because it could be proven invalid in court but because he will lose business and then what is the point of operating 5Dimes. So, he makes rules that are strong enough to protect him but open enough that he doesn't destroy public opinion.

SBR can say a rule is invalid but they are by no means an executive branch of offshore gaming. The only way they can force or attempt to force action is through leverage. SBR actually has more power than the Costa Rican government in situations like this. If SBR were to downgrade an A+ book or threaten a downgrade the effect on people leaving or not signing up with the book is worth plenty more than the book just settling the issue or changing the rule based on SBR's decision.

My conclusion is Tony can make any rule he wants. Like it or leave it there is nobody that will win such a case given the jurisdiction. People do not have to play there. Tony can do this because there is no law or court that will invalidate his rules. The only place is SBR and even then Tony can say F-Off. Tony will just pay in revenue but never have to pay a lawyer on the topic. His rules may not be fair but whatever his rule, even if he said "no blacks" would not be tried in any actual court and overturned. So in the end, Tony is God at 5Dimes because your only higher power over Tony is SBR leverage.

As offshore players we are all at the mercy of the establishments. Many people find this out, like cory with EZStreet, that no matter your case, if the establishment refuses to do something, there is nobody to force them otherwise. Until that changes, Tony can post whatever rules he wants. The only thing that keeps him in check is not making silly rules like "no winning bets on Saturday" because nobody will be there. But again, Tony could make that rule and it could stand with nobody having any recourse against it. It's all jurisdiction and rule of law!

[chachi]

And to think when awhile back I made a blanket statement about people with 3/4/5 figure balances in Central American bookies needing their heads examined I was slated and told I didn't know what I was talking about.

If Tony were running a Euro book and tried some of the crap he's alleged to have pulled over the years he would possibly be behind bars by now and/or a lot poorer.

Pinnacle is the only book sponsor I have/will deposit into and even there I do not regularly keep large balances ...

[wrongturn]

I agree with SBR's decision in this case, but rules like this one - no bot use - can not be fairly enforced. The casino only investigates players who win, and if they discover they used a bot they don't pay the winnings. But what if a player uses a bot and loses? In this case, the player can not claim they used a bot and want a refund. Basically the casino is waiting to see if the player wins or loses as to whether they enforce this rule, even if this is not their intention. Unless the rule is going to be enforced fairly - which means investigating all video poker players who play a lot of hands - win or lose - the rule is not reasonable, and books who have this rule should not be able to get a high rating.

I agree with this completely. When I said the rule probably will not stand in US court, it does not mean US court won't rule like SBR just did in this case. It meant if this rule gets sued in court with the arguments like yours, the casino is likely to lose. At least they have to make the rule more clear on what circumstances it can apply, and what the "appropriate" actions are.

[wrongturn]

Thanks for that article. Very good read!

I agree that rules and laws are unconsitutional or unfair in many cases. Hell, I would be out of a job if that were not the case (as would the Supreme Court).

The question in the 5Dimes case is whether their rules are unfair. It could be argued unfair in principle but it is not unfair in practice in my opinion. As any lawyer would say the key to arguing a law is the jurisdiction. If someone from the US smokes pot in Amsterdam, it's legal and the US cannot charge them for drug use. Under US law I think this rule, in this specific situation still stands. If the Supreme Court can say "no gays" in the Boy Scouts is allowed, I think they would say "no robots can play at 5Dimes". Just speculation though.

However what the US would do does not matter. The problem to everyone arguing the validity of the rule is 5Dimes is located in Costa Rica. Costa Rica has long said they will not deal in gaming/processing related disputes. So, Tony has carte blanche to create any rule, however crazy, and the only court he will be tried in would be the court of public opinion and SBR. His only penalty for stupid rules (although again I don't think the no bot rule is stupid) would be loss of business. Tony cannot make any rule, not because it could be proven invalid in court but because he will lose business and then what is the point of operating 5Dimes. So, he makes rules that are strong enough to protect him but open enough that he doesn't destroy public opinion.

SBR can say a rule is invalid but they are by no means an executive branch of offshore gaming. The only way they can force or attempt to force action is through leverage. SBR actually has more power than the Costa Rican government in situations like this. If SBR were to downgrade an A+ book or threaten a downgrade the effect on people leaving or not signing up with the book is worth plenty more than the book just settling the issue or changing the rule based on SBR's decision.

My conclusion is Tony can make any rule he wants. Like it or leave it there is nobody that will win such a case given the jurisdiction. People do not have to play there. Tony can do this because there is no law or court that will invalidate his rules. The only place is SBR and even then Tony can say F-Off. Tony will just pay in revenue but never have to pay a lawyer on the topic. His rules may not be fair but whatever his rule, even if he said "no blacks" would not be tried in any actual court and overturned. So in the end, Tony is God at 5Dimes because your only higher power over Tony is SBR leverage.

As offshore players we are all at the mercy of the establishments. Many people find this out, like cory with EZStreet, that no matter your case, if the establishment refuses to do something, there is nobody to force them otherwise. Until that changes, Tony can post whatever rules he wants. The only thing that keeps him in check is not making silly rules like "no winning bets on Saturday" because nobody will be there. But again, Tony could make that rule and it could stand with nobody having any recourse against it. It's all jurisdiction and rule of law!

Thank you for writing such a long post explaining everything. But everybody already knew sportsbooks can make up whatever rule they want and no court can regulate them. SBR is the next closest possible to have some pull on them.

[cyberinvestor]

Thank you for writing such a long post explaining everything. But everybody already knew sportsbooks can make up whatever rule they want and no court can regulate them. SBR is the next closest possible to have some pull on them.

Then why do people keep arguing that Tony cannot make up any rule or especially this rule? His jurisdiction provides him no higher power that can terminate his rules. Don't like his rules, tough, play somewhere else. Arguing the rules is futile as there is nobody to argue to in this case.

Bots and devices are outlawed in every brick and mortar casino. You cannot even have a cell phone on the table. You have to walk away to take a call. So why is the 5Dimes rule of no devices so crazy and unreasonable as people want to argue?

My cell phone is not a device that by itself will change or effect my play on the game. However if I take a call at a table in Vegas or put it on the table you practically get assaulted by the staff the second you say "hello." Here's a rule that is in effect in the casino, has no effect on the game, but is enforced and nobody could fight it in court. Is it unreasonable? No. Is it unenforceable? Obviously not. Does it have an effect on the game? No.

[wrongturn]

Then why do people keep arguing that Tony cannot make up any rule or especially this rule? His jurisdiction provides him no higher power that can terminate his rules. Don't like his rules, tough, play somewhere else. Arguing the rules is futile as there is nobody to argue to in this case.

Bots and devices are outlawed in every brick and mortar casino. You cannot even have a cell phone on the table. You have to walk away to take a call. So why is the 5Dimes rule of no devices so crazy and unreasonable as people want to argue?

My cell phone is not a device that by itself will change or effect my play on the game. However if I take a call at a table in Vegas or put it on the table you practically get assaulted by the staff the second you say "hello." Here's a rule that is in effect in the casino, has no effect on the game, but is enforced and nobody could fight it in court. Is it unreasonable? No. Is it unenforceable? Obviously not. Does it have an effect on the game? No.

People just give their own opinion and their opinion can influence SBR's decision because SBR asks posters opinion all the time. Plus, whether a rule is reasonable also lies on its action. Las Vegas prohibits cell phone use on the table, but they can't confiscate winning when they discover you are using a cell phone. Big difference here.

[Slainte]

There are several such calculators.. Wizard of Odds has payout analysis for most games, and also this calculator: http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/analyzer/

Thank you Santo!

[cyberinvestor]

People just give their own opinion and their opinion can influence SBR's decision because SBR asks posters opinion all the time. Plus, whether a rule is reasonable also lies on its action. Las Vegas prohibits cell phone use on the table, but they can't confiscate winning when they discover you are using a cell phone. Big difference here.

I have no problem with people's opinion. Where I have a problem is when people instead of engaging in a discussion will just resort to childish attacks or make accusations and then not back them up. To me, that is weak. I am not saying you did this in any way. Frankly I have enjoyed this discussion with you. It's more tailored to just a few on this thread.

What happens in these threads is we all just go round and round. For example, my point about cell phones is that a casino can prohibit cell phones as a rule. 5Dimes can prohibit bots as a rule. All casinos prohibit bots/devices at the games. So for those arguing that 5Dimes cannot make this rule of "no bots" and expect it to be overturned as unfair is way off base in my opinion since every other casino in the world will not allow you to use a device/bot. As you can see by the no cell phones rule, no harm is done 99% of the time with cellphones but that doesn't mean we can break the casinos rule and not expect to be thrown out. So on the basis of the legitimacy of the rules (not discussing ability to confiscate winnings yet) I don't see how the "no bot" rule in ANY situation within a casino whether brick and mortar or online is unreasonable. It is enforced every day in many countries.

The other part of what you said is should they confiscate winnings for cell phone use? The answer is of course no. However the reason is the casino does not post any rules in this regard to set a basis that could be tested in court. We would simply speculate on the outcome and standing of such a rule. 5Dimes on the other hand does have a rule that if you use a bot they reserve the right to seize your winnings. You are told this upfront. There is no jurisdictional authority over 5Dimes from preventing them to have this rule so how is it not enforceable? Unfortunately 5Dimes is the end all and be all, in this instance. Had this happened in the US you could fight the Nevada Gaming Commission or take it to court.

It's a fundamental discussion and given the anger some people have (not you WrongTurn) toward my position it is obvious there is no changing their opinions. I am not out to do that but rather provide an opposite side to influence SBR's decision and provide case law and precedent for my position. Some people believe with vigor that the rule at 5Dimes in unreasonable. I am just curious what they base it on since every other casino has a similar rule of no devices during the games. Craps is a -EV game and there is no changing that (disregard controlled throwing for a moment) but yet I still cannot have an electronic device at the table even if I am just using it to track the numbers on the dice for some system I created.

This discussion of how a bot doesn't help in a -EV game or whatever is silly. The discussion doesn't deserve to get to that point as you are already breaking the rule. Go into the casino and tell them you can talk on your cell phone at the table since it isn't influencing the game. See how that works out.

[dikefale]

After all this happened i didnt see zabula replaying? Is this confirmation that he used Bot?

[OSUCOWBOYS]

SBR made the correct decision. OP has nothing coming.

[shari91]

After all this happened i didnt see zabula replaying? Is this confirmation that he used Bot?

He replied 6hrs ago on the previous page

Ok, I see verdict has already been released.. No wonder nobody from SBR even contacted me.. What is most sad for me is that 5 Dimes remains A+. I hope all you here now see what people are in 5 Dimes and that they can do literally whatever they want with your money.. And SBR? Yes, really good advocate.. Money talks again.. Maybe if I wold offer SBR 5 000 USD for helping me to win this results would be different. I dont even know where did hand history come from... They just posted some file here that doesnt even have to be un edited... So if 5 Dimes wanted to give them such evidence, they could easily do some edits there to look like I used a bot. One more thik - who still beleives that 5 Dimes deserves A+, should take into consideration how fast was their judgement about my case. Then it took a week when they had to deal with SBR and SBRs "investigation"... So is this really A+ book behaviour? Another thing is I was robed another 200 USD. When my account was zeroed, I still had some pending bets there. Which won so after few days my balance was 200 and I still could access account, check hand history and defend myself. Now my account is just deleted. I cant even log in.. So another 200 was stolen and all evidences that I could use was just taken by 5 dimes so I have nothing in hands.. Is this fair court? How could SBR give them still A+? Money talks.. I hope people on SBR are independent on 5 Dimes money and they will help players anyway. Bottom line is that 5 Dimes totally failed with seting up payout.. So once player takes advantage over it, its done.. No way that player could be in favour against casino.. I wish all you guys who are on my side could take all your loses from casino games, because games are not set into your favour normally.. Here it was on my favour, but look how did I ended up... Also how can A+ book "juice" player... They had this "evidences" looong time before they closed my account.. they was just waiting, for sure.. I already took 2 smaller withdrawals from them (like 3000 USD) which was OK, because it was still under original amount of money I had there.. So no problem with that, still I had something more to lose with them.. So they vere just waiting and keeping me playing and then bam.. So make your own opinion. For me, 5 Dimes and SBR = 1 BIG FAIL. I will wait few more days and if nothing else changes into my favour, I am gona post about this to more forums as somebody could be interested how A+ ratings are calculated here on SBR... :/

[Santo]

Two interesting points & 1 point of admin lost amongst the threats/nonsense:

- Even assuming that's 2 separate withdrawals totalling $3k, I still have a factor of suspicion that the account must have been subject to some kind of audit.

- If he had $200 of pending sports bets settled after this dispute, I guess the 5D justification for confiscating them is that they were made with winnings from bot play. That may be tenuous given it seems the player deposited over $3k to start with. If you're going to void all the bot play, those hands never happened, and the sports bets should be seen as from original funds.

- He raises the issue that the logs could be forged, and of course that's always an issue when one party is in control of the evidence, but I'm sure SBR have the means to request their authenticity if necessary.

[scarface]

i like that when the same issue occurred with easy street sbr dropped their rating 2 days later... but because 5dimes is a PAID ADVERTISER they are still a A book... what a joke these review sites...its a business not a review site...

[Justin7]

i like that when the same issue occurred with easy street sbr dropped their rating 2 days later... but because 5dimes is a PAID ADVERTISER they are still a A book... what a joke these review sites...its a business not a review site...

Scarface,

I'm not sure if you have been reading, but these are two very different cases. In this one, it was clear that a bot was used. In the EasyStreetSports case, there were flimsy allegations of bot use, and EZ refused or was unable to prove its claims.

The downgrade of EasyStreetSports didn't occur until after we reviewed it, made recommendations, and waited over a week for their response or any new evidence they wanted to offer.

[chachi]

Two interesting points & 1 point of admin lost amongst the threats/nonsense:

- Even assuming that's 2 separate withdrawals totalling $3k, I still have a factor of suspicion that the account must have been subject to some kind of audit.

- If he had $200 of pending sports bets settled after this dispute, I guess the 5D justification for confiscating them is that they were made with winnings from bot play. That may be tenuous given it seems the player deposited over $3k to start with. If you're going to void all the bot play, those hands never happened, and the sports bets should be seen as from original funds.

It's like we're singing a duet

[Legions36]

He got in trouble for bot usage.

[runner5k]

i like that when the same issue occurred with easy street sbr dropped their rating 2 days later... but because 5dimes is a PAID ADVERTISER they are still a A book... what a joke these review sites...its a business not a review site...

Please read entire thread on both matters before saying its the same issue because its not

[Dark Horse]

i like that when the same issue occurred with easy street sbr dropped their rating 2 days later... but because 5dimes is a PAID ADVERTISER they are still a A book... what a joke these review sites...its a business not a review site...

There's a minority of people here that believe that, and nothing will shake that belief. Kind of similar to religious fundamentalists. They don't have to think or learn, because they already know it all.

[cyberinvestor]

There's a minority of people here that believe that, and nothing will shake that belief. Kind of similar to religious fundamentalists. They don't have to think or learn, because they already know it all.

A small group attacked me but when asked to attack what I posted and provide their counter opinion, funny they all vanished. A small group here knows everything and if you don't believe it, just ask them. They won't tell you how or why they will just state they are more qualified and border the genius level with any topic you want them to discuss. It isn't worth arguing because they will never get it.

[thisisit]

Hey maybe Z can ask them for a cash back on his losses lol they have the program for it there 15% of his losses

[trixtrix]

A small group attacked me but when asked to attack what I posted and provide their counter opinion, funny they all vanished. A small group here knows everything and if you don't believe it, just ask them. They won't tell you how or why they will just state they are more qualified and border the genius level with any topic you want them to discuss. It isn't worth arguing because they will never get it.

people stopped arguing w/ you b/c they realized what a waste of time it is, you don't argue politics w/ a chimp all day long, it's pointless.

your lack of legal experience was demonstrated clearly in your inability to grasp simple legal concepts in the examples of the blue-car and ritz roulette winning case, why would anyone waste any additional time arguing back and forth w/ you when it's clear that you're unqualified to give an opinion? (and no it's not a personal thing)

[cyberinvestor]

people stopped arguing w/ you b/c they realized what a waste of time it is, you don't argue politics w/ a chimp all day long, it's pointless.

your lack of legal experience was demonstrated clearly in your inability to grasp simple legal concepts in the examples of the blue-car and ritz roulette winning case, why would anyone waste any additional time arguing back and forth w/ you when it's clear that you're unqualified to give an opinion? (and no it's not a personal thing)

Obviously you can't let it go. Another good cop out though as still you, like the others, will not attack my posts. You just make these generic examples and broad statements but don't for one second demonstrate your immense intelligence by attacking my posts. You just find great excuses not to address them. No worry. This thread is done now that there is a new 5Dimes scandal, see you over there!

[nobs]

they stole a lot more than that

[zabula11]

How did you even find it was "clear bot use"?
Because of some strange pauses I had? I dont beleive datas 5 Dimes provided you.. They could easily change it.. It is excel spreadsheet.. come on.. I want to see official casino stats..
5 Dimes still owes me 14 700 USD and nothing is changed. It was stole under white days light... And I see in another thread here that some other guy is having troubles with his 32 000 USD... so what a F.. is 5 Dimes? And SBR still remains it A+...... guys.... come on...

Scarface,

I'm not sure if you have been reading, but these are two very different cases. In this one, it was clear that a bot was used. In the EasyStreetSports case, there were flimsy allegations of bot use, and EZ refused or was unable to prove its claims.

The downgrade of EasyStreetSports didn't occur until after we reviewed it, made recommendations, and waited over a week for their response or any new evidence they wanted to offer.

[zabula11]

so 5D still remains A+???
WHAT A HELLL!!!!!!!! SBR is just owned by 5 DIMES!!!! LAMEE
I Go to write about this to casino meister, this SUX!

[ElLoco23]

But wouldn't it all make sense to get as much money as possible from the players? Books can own the forums like Betphoenix owns EOG, and books most likely being in bed with the line services. After all, we expect the books (99% which aren't regulated) to regulate themselves to be fair and honest, LOL. Reminds me of when I had to have my insurance (State Farm), sue a company who also had State Farm Insurance. I knew I wasn't going to get a fair settlement, lol.

[Santo]

zabula: Is your position still that you didn't use a bot and that the logs are forged?

[nobs]

she said it was only 7000 he says its 14700. either way, 5 dimes always seems to be having these problems

[zabula11]

It was 14500 originaly, they then seized another 200 I won from sports and closed my account entirely, so I am not even able to log in and check my history etc... But I saved all this files so I have all evidences that I could have.
Of course I did not use bot and I never told I did. I was take all money because of "using robot" but only evidence was some shitty spreadsheed that 5 dimes gave SBR... I am very curious why did they started just by 1st of April, if I started to play with 5 Dimes much earlier.. Probably because there wasnt such volume so they could forge it so easily... Also only those same pauses was "evidence" of bot play.. haha, lol. Every one who knows 5 Dimes knows they have very often some strange lags in casino and I was dealing with that every while. So I can just tell that this same lenght pauses are because of server side of 5 dimes that was having this delays... It wouldnt be even possible to make soooo accurate pauses, not even for any bot as there is always som +- 1 second respone time so even if I would like to make such same lenght pauses, I woulndt be possible to it... So very very strange in hand history are such exactly same lenght pauses...
But you can see on whose side is SBR... They just received some excel spreadsheet that can be edited just like that and I am 100% sure they edited it. Why would they send excel spreadsheed that can be doubtfull if they can easily make excel spreadsheet that will be bullet proof evidence of bot play? They wanted to win, so that is why they make such spreadsheet...
Send me some regular hand history from DSG.. I hope DSG is not in hands of 5 Dimes like SBR is so they could provide more fair hand history and also from begining.. not from 1st april, lol... Even if you scroll to another dates there arent such pauses... it is there just sometimes.. so my explanation is it is either edited by 5 Dimes or it is because of server lags... nobody would be possible to make such extra acurate pauses if video poker respone time is very variable, at least +- 1 second.. so how can you make 3 pauses in row for X.X seconds same lenght... pure cheated evidence... but nobody cares anymore.. people continue to deposit to A+ 5 Dimes.. lol

[BuckeyeT]

so 5D still remains A+???
WHAT A HELLL!!!!!!!! SBR is just owned by 5 DIMES!!!! LAMEE
I Go to write about this to casino meister, this SUX!

Even though casinomeister is a great site i am not sure Bryan will be able to help you out with your situation.

He has made it pretty clear, and its even in his section about accredited gaming sites that he doesnt want to have anything to do with any casino or sportsbook that is located in Costa Rica.

Best of luck!

[wrongturn]

Maybe he can try to get help from the Wizard of Odds site instead.

[Borat38]

I'm thinking of pulling out of 5Dimes because of this complaint. No matter if the op really used a bot, that Tony's condescending, a-hole way of dealing with customers is just off-putting. Makes you think twice if you win, and think again if you want to do business w/ them.

I take it Pinnacle or BetJam doesn't have these kinds of feedback?

[nobs]

5 dimes is a shithole book and thats not just me saying that. There are always complaints on this book. Never a complaint on the greek

[Santo]

On a different machine, so I don't have the logs here, but a quick thought that came to mind: Is the gap that remains constant time between mouse clicks, or time between hand resolution? The former would be explained by a bot, but the latter, given that decision making time on the other hands all seems different, would be a bit odd?

[nobs]

What will be next? All your graded wagers voided because you are fortune teller?...

Please dont give 5 dimes any ideas. I honestly wouldnt be surprised if they used that excuse.