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Hi,
I am trying to reach Bill Dozer via PM since he posted his comment to this thread about publicing my hands. Generally I am not against it, but I just want to talk with him in more details about this (because how you want to public hundereds of thousands hands?) so... but no answer from him so far.. I would like to know if there is any progress in "investigation"...
Just a detail for guys who wants me to film myself as I play - this is kinda dishonesting for me at first case, I dont wanne be threated like a piece of cattle to make here some public show. I personaly want a home tape of Tony doing math on payout table of that video poker we are talking here about.
But also my account is closed and there is no way I can play that game again. Also no fun mode is available. So possibly only way would be to persuade someone very very naive to create an account with 5D and DEPOSIT there and play video poker game ====> he would get blocked and all his funds would be confiscated as mine was :/ It would be very cruel from me to tell someone to deposit into 5Dimes...Comment -
Hi Guys,
is there any really expert on explaining terms of use?
Because point of this case is that Tony and his 5 Dimes refuses to pay me because he doesnt like my winning and is throwing on me this statement:
All Internet wagers must be placed through the user interface provided by 5Dimes Sportsbook & Casino on its Web pages. Any Internet wagering through other means, including the use of a "robot" player, is strictly forbidden. In the event that use of non-approved client software is detected, Management reserves the right to invalidate all such wagers retroactively, cancel the player's account, or take any other appropriate action.
So I want ask you about your opinion. I am not native english speaking person so my understanding can be different, but how it seems to me is:
1) "All Internet wagers" that is the point. I think that all this statement is just about sports book and not about casino. In casino I think you dont place wagers, but you BET a STAKE.
2) "through the user interface provided by 5Dimes" this may be odd, but I ve heared here in this thread that some third company provides 5 Dimes their casino, so does this statement really matter to casino if it is third company?
3) "robot" is in quotes.. so what is robot? Nowhere is defined this word and when it is quoted, it can just mean anything.. it is like if I say, 5 dimes is really "good" sportsbook...
4) "use of non-approved client software" this also looks funny... I did not find any list of approved softwares on 5 Dimes site.. Like PokerStars has for example. So I think every one can be punished here for using just Winamp etc... every software probably but internet explorer can be "non-approved"
So this are just my thoughts, but Tonys reaction was so fast that I think he just in panic, that somebody won and want to withdraw, looked into terms and thorw on me first statement he found without even reading it. What do you think abou "Internet Wagers"? Is that casino play?...
Also if you log in into 5 dimes, there is: ACCOUNT - VIEW WAGERS... and what is there? Of course JUST sports book wagers.. there you wont find anything about casino play, not even any transfer into casino...
If I go into TRANSACTIONS, there is this:
800222925/9/11 5:43pm$150.00-$814.20Wager Won80007147-2$75.00$75.00
Win5/9/11 2:15pm International Hockey 105 Czech Republic -1½ +100*vs Germany
right, WAGER WON, but if I look for another transactions from casino, I have there this:
800062755/9/11 1:01am$3,513.00$13,626.49Casino Win - 5/8/2011
just CASINO WON.. nothing like wager..
in DAILY FIGURE selection is are also same categories used - wagers for sports and casino for casino like:
Wager details for ticket number 80007147-2:
Wager Type:Spread (or run line)Wager Status:WinRisk / To Win Amount:75.00 / 75.00 (USD) Accepted 5/9/2011 5:11 AM - ESTWon: 75.00Amount Paid: 150.00
and on same screen below I have casino play:
POSTED CASINO SUMMARY
Daily Figure Date Bet Type Win Loss5/9/2011(VP) Royal Jackpot D1,350.00554.505/9/2011Pai Gow Poker 0.0015.005/9/2011Slots - Five-Reel Fr271.7558.50
TOTAL1,621.75628.00
so this are my thoughts.. what do you thing about statement:
All Internet wagers must be placed through the user interface provided by 5Dimes Sportsbook & Casino on its Web pages.
can casino play be even threated like Internet wagers that are apparently just sports?
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Wager=bet
Quote from wikipedia:
"Online casinos enable gamblers to play and wager on casino games through the Internet."Comment -
Thank you. Sounds fair, but still it says about verb wager, not about noun.
Also statement says this: wagers must be placed
Have you ever heard in casino: Place your wagers? maybe place your bets... I think you place wager just in sports book or race book, but not in casino or poker.. but I would like to knew more opinions on this than just anonymous wikipedia statement. thanks guys
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zabula: If you didn't use a bot, the T&C regarding bots are irrelevant. You said when you first posted that you didn't.Comment -
Of course I expected such comments like you did now.. Why do I confront terms if I did not use robot.
How about this - My money was stolen on the basis of one statement in terms. What if this statement is completelly irelevant to me. Wouldnt it be just solved? Do you think I am happy waiting what is gonna be with my money? I am just trying to reach light at the end of tunel as soon as possible. I am trying to avoid this situation that is kinda like - 5dimes doesnt want to pay so they try to throw on me this statement.. ok.. we got 3 weeks of time.. no sorry.. data of hand history is too big and we are totally fishes of coputers so exporting will take us one more week of time. Month later, SBR finds on hand history no problem... so then 5 Dimes try to throw another statement on me.. and another reason why they wont pay will be here etc... so I am just trying to defend my rights as I thing I did not do anything wrong.
Also IF they did not have any problem of paying me around 1000 USD in past because I was playing variety of games, was not that sharp etc so I was perspective (losing) customer. Once I decided to turn into professional and give it a full time shot playing a game that has +EV for customer, then my winnings went higher.. and suddenly there is problem with payout and all money gone seized... I wish customers could seize all money of all casinos online, because 99.99% games has -EV. So if it is not bad to take money from customer and is right luring them on playing -EV games, what is that bad on playing +EV game? But Tony just dont like when people also gets little money from him because of his games that he proudly designed...Comment -
I smell a rat (btw I hate 5dimes)Comment -
Granted it is early in the morning which limits my ability to read this. However this post and your previous posts lend me to believe there is more to your side of the story then you are telling us. Which begs the question, did you use a bot? You say "no" but then you are bothering to waste a lot of time and space arguing the terms and conditions. The terms and conditions are simple, use a bot then no pay. If you have to argue actual wording then you did something other than just normal play and are trying to justify it within the rules. So don't waste time with that. Either you played the game like a normal person (load it up and click away like a madman) or you did something else. According to 5Dimes rules as I understand them from this thread, if you did anything but play like a normal person (not play using the 5Dimes interface, use a bot, etc.) you cheated and they thereby have the legal opening within the rules to void your bets. Actually offshore books don't need legal openings BUT at least they can argue that you knew the rules before. To me if you are trying to argue the wording then you did something and were not innocently playing the game fast. I thought the 20,000 hands were over one day where I think the "binge" theory that you could play for an entire day at that level was being argued. However if you played 20,000 per day for an entire month, now I would like to see people argue how that is possible. Even if we assume you just slept, ate, showered, bathroom, etc. for a total of four hours per day then you would have needed to play a hand at 3.6 seconds OF PERFECT STRATEGY on probably three hours of sleep. However after about day 20 on three hours straight of sleep and an hour of bathing and eating you should be dead. If you spent 8 hours off of video poker for sleep, eat, groceries, etc. then you had to play hands at 2.88 seconds. If you really did that, damn. That is amazing and my hat is off to you.
Last edited by cyberinvestor; 05-12-11, 06:52 AM.Today is the tomorrow we worried about yesterday.Comment -
Like I told, I am just trying to get my money. And if any conflict with explaining Terms and Conditions will help to put "law" on my side, then I must try to get this extra points. For you 14 500 USD is probably not worth of wasting time by trying to find any "hole" in terms and get your money faster and easier.. for me every little point counts as I have against me GOD TONY
Granted it is early in the morning which limits my ability to read this. However this post and your previous posts lend me to believe there is more to your side of the story then you are telling us. Which begs the question, did you use a bot? You say "no" but then you are bothering to waste a lot of time and space arguing the terms and conditions. The terms and conditions are simple, use a bot then no pay. If you have to argue actual wording then you did something other than just normal play and are trying to justify it within the rules. So don't waste time with that. Either you played the game like a normal person (load it up and click away like a madman) or you did something else. According to 5Dimes rules as I understand them from this thread, if you did anything but play like a normal person (not play using the 5Dimes interface, use a bot, etc.) you cheated and they thereby have the legal opening within the rules to void your bets. Actually offshore books don't need legal openings BUT at least they can argue that you knew the rules before. To me if you are trying to argue the wording then you did something and were not innocently playing the game fast. I thought the 20,000 hands were over one day where I think the "binge" theory that you could play for an entire day at that level was being argued. However if you played 20,000 per day for an entire month, now I would like to see people argue how that is possible. Even if we assume you just slept, ate, showered, bathroom, etc. for a total of four hours per day then you would have needed to play a hand at 3.6 seconds OF PERFECT STRATEGY on probably three hours of sleep. However after about day 20 on three hours straight of sleep and an hour of bathing and eating you should be dead. If you spent 8 hours off of video poker for sleep, eat, groceries, etc. then you had to play hands at 2.88 seconds. If you really did that, damn. That is amazing and my hat is off to you.Comment -
Listen dude you are starting to "Back away" from your 1st posts... Either you played with a bot or not. 20,000 hands for 30 days you have to f...kin insane to have absolutely NO LIFE to play that amount within that time period.
Now you wanna get paid as quick as possible? Come on man u kidding? I smell as rat and I do really want to believe that you didn't play with a Bot but I have this VERY VERY strong feeling when we all see these hands and the perfect strategy played there is going to be no doubt a BOT was used to play... just a hunch.Comment -
The point is if you played the game fair then all you would say is "I did not cheat, I played by myself using the interface as per the rules, and deserve to be paid". There is no reason to all of a sudden discuss terms and conditions if the above in quotes is 100% true. It makes no sense unless you are trying to say you did something subversive (i.e. not play yourself in the interface) but you did it within the rules. At which point then an attempt to show a "hole" in the terms is the only option for defense.
You do not need to put "law" on your side. If you played the game, yourself as a human sitting at the computer and clicking away, then you need not say anything more.
As it has been stated here, if SBR rules in your favor 5Dimes will pay. However this new PR campaign you are putting forth about the attack on the rules and Tony seems a little weird since all I would say in your situation (IF TRUE) is I played this game with my two hands and nothing else for every single hand played.
I smelled something on this at the initial post but then was attacked that I was nuts. Now it seems little bits of truth are slowly creeping out. It doesn't mean you are guilty but the evidence is mounting and from your own mouth.Today is the tomorrow we worried about yesterday.Comment -
Given Tony couldn't handle AH maths it doesn't surprise me at all that he'd say the game was only winnable if you 'used a bot'
I'd sit as long as I could at a game which both had that much +EV and also only required one possible decision to be made given the autohold ...
Hell, if the max stake wasn't capped so low I'd wager at least one or two SBR members if not more would consider having a case of Depends on hand
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Agree and perhaps you would make a job of sitting at the computer five days a week to do it but at some point you would need to recharge to avoid making mistakes and thereby losing that edge. Your edge just naturally would decline as you avoided sleep and eating over the course of a month.Given Tony couldn't handle AH maths it doesn't surprise me at all that he'd say the game was only winnable if you 'used a bot' I'd sit as long as I could at a game which both had that much +EV and also only required one possible decision to be made given the autohold ... Hell, if the max stake wasn't capped so low I'd wager at least one or two SBR members if not more would consider having a case of Depends on hand
Also, it is common practice for card cheats to play like a loser for a while to try and build a "square" rep. They don't mind giving up $50 a hand because when they take the casino for a royal or straight flush it still gives them a great ROI. These guys will even play slots and other games at the casino to build a profile of just getting lucky at the game they are rigging. Which is what it appears Zman might have been doing. He wins over $13K but is wagering only $75 and $150 on these sports bets. He also played -EV games by his own admission. Again, I would love to see his action on other games just to compare his level of play there versus video poker. All this does not say he is guilty, again things just keep adding up funny.Today is the tomorrow we worried about yesterday.Comment -
Pay the man/bot unless he broke a rule you can prove, not spectulate.. Good luckComment -
Had this been another book... say Betus, SBG, Sportsbook.com the SBR community (by that I mean the posters) would be up in arms... saying things like "they waited 30 days until he won to shut down the account... they were free-rolling him... why not shut the account down earlier."
Losing 14k seems a small price to pay for the knowledge you're offering a +EV game.Comment -
Depends don't go on hand.Given Tony couldn't handle AH maths it doesn't surprise me at all that he'd say the game was only winnable if you 'used a bot'
I'd sit as long as I could at a game which both had that much +EV and also only required one possible decision to be made given the autohold ...
Hell, if the max stake wasn't capped so low I'd wager at least one or two SBR members if not more would consider having a case of Depends on hand
Seriously though, your points are excellent. It's no different than working a monotonous job all day plus ot. He should expect to get paid, especially from an A+ Book.
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Zabula,
Once the hands are all exported, we can embed a spreadsheet for each day of your activity, showing the total amount of hands, timestamps, breaks in-between.
Do you consent?
5Dimes copied the default DGS Deuces Wild VP game, increased some payouts & renamed the game. 5Dimes management says the game was erroneously boosted up 112%. The game is still offered by them with corrected payouts.
We have also enabled a new Deuces Wild game (second in list) in our SBR Casino for the public to view without having to leave the SBR network. We can't mirror all options exactly, but that is very close to the game featured at 5D.Comment -
Translation: You used a bot on a VERY RARE +EV online casino game, I know you want to bullshit for hours about whether you did or didnt but the truth is you SHOULD ABSOLUTELY BE PAID either way. If 5Dimes is dumb enough to offer a 112% payout casino game then they will pay out far more than 14k on that game in the long-run so they should send a ty letter along with that 14k check to thank you for revealing their game to be +EV and saving them money. They certainly offer plenty of -EV games and have no problem collecting deposits from them all day long so its kinda interesting what bitches they are being about paying out when they accidently ended up one time on the -EV side. The OP should absolutely be paid immediately or downgrade 5Dimes to F-Last edited by bettilimbroke999; 05-12-11, 09:48 AM.Comment -
Some of you guys are unfairly putting this guy on the stand. He is not obligated to say anything here just like in a regular court. There is a reason you don't put a defendant on the stand unless you feel it is your only hope. It is obvious that English is tough for him so he is in a no win situation by posting here.
From where I sit, Tony messed up by offering this game and instead of admitting such he is taking the easy way out and zeroing out this guy's account and changing the game back to where it should have been from the beginning. Kind of like a big "whoops we messed up but you are not getting paid anyway. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, but we are seizing your 14k and closing your account. Because of you we have taken steps to keep this from happening again, but I am sorry that you had to get screwed"
We all know by now what the hand history is going to show. It is going to show an aggressive player going after a hugely +EV game. Bot or no bot if enough players knew about this game it was going to get pounded. If the group I was involved with years ago had seen this game we would have sent in several dozen players and hit this thing all day. I doubt this guy was the only one pounding away at it. He might have been the only one lucky enough to win over 14k on one account. Collectively, I would have taken 5 dimes for 6 figures on this and they would not have been able to prove I used any "illegal device".
To me it all boils down to the mistake in offering the game. It should have been pulled long ago. Because it wasn't I think they need to pay this player and be thankful that a player or group of players that I was involved in didn't really take them to the cleaners.Comment -
If someone uses a bot and the casino wins, can the player complain and get their money back?
I still think it is on the casino to prove he used a bot but I also sense that Zab is backtracking a little bit.
I am no lawyer, Zab ... but let me help you ..... here is your defense and you don't need to say anything else:
"I never used a bot while playing this game. Not once. Ever."
Anything else you say at this point hurts your cause. My spidey sense is starting to tingle but it is still the responsiblity of the casino to prove that he did in fact use a bot.
BTW the bot rule is stupid. If you offer the game, you should pay on the results regardless. But it is a clearly stated rule.Comment -
My advice to Zabula11 is to go to the "no comment" defense that Cory1111 has used. The burden of proof is on Tony and 5D and, unless the OP confesses, I don't believe bot use can be proven.Comment -
WVU: Everyone was patiently waiting until the OP made the rambling post earlier trying to redefine bot play. That post made him look a lot more suspicious than he originally did.
Sometimes doing nothing is the best course of action.Comment -
As Justin7 said earlier in this thread (IIRC), it will get very interesting if it is determined that he did use a bot (i.e., what's the fair resolution???). I'm sure we'll get some dramatically different opinions on that one (some will say "pay him anyways," but I'm sure that's not how it will end up). I'm really hoping he didn't use a bot though, and that the case becomes closed promptly (with OP getting paid).
I'm picturing some very ambitious kid somewhere in a third-world country, where the only available work is hard labor that pays a mere pittance -- and he figures out the +EV return on this game and takes advantage of it while the entire village looks on in disbelief!! Agreed that his recent posts attempting to dissect the T&C's ain't helping his cause, but I think what WVU said above bears emphasis -- his lack of understanding of English is making him look worse than he otherwise would appear.
I'm pulling for you, Zabulla11!! Please take Clowncar's advice above, and if you didn't use a bot you'll be fine (and it may even work out if you did but it can't be proven).Comment -
Could not have said it better myself. Tony is off base on this one, and should pay the player. I doubt they will be able to prove there was bot use or not, and I wouldn't be surprised if Tony has in fact been following the whole EZ ordeal and thinking "well, if I ever need a bail-out, i'll just yell bot use and cry foul."
I know that's a baseless theory for the most part, but if any books have been following that dispute I'm sure we all will be seeing a lot more of this in the future. Aside from that, the player doesn't have to admit bot use one way or the other, if they can prove it, then fine, but if they can't then pay him, simple as that. It's not up to the player to furiously continue to admit he played fair (which I believe he did). He's outlined his claim in good enough detail to warrant an investigation on both sides, and that is whats happening now. I hope this dispute is dealt with the right way and a proper resolution is met.
Also, I do agree with those who say the player should basically shut up now, lol...I don't know if he intends to incriminate himself, but now is the time he probably should just sit back and not say a word until the investigation is over and done with.Comment
