Thank you! Finally someone else who says all I have been trying to get across all along. I may have posted a lot to this thread but I did so only because I was attacked by a variety of parties including PM's asking me to stop posting (not by SBR) on this thread. All I was doing was pointing out more and more evidence of how this kept smelling worse and worse. Instead of anyone attacking my points or what I pointed out (I am still waiting for someone to explain the three exact 491.3 second and one 491.4 second breaks in one day) they attacked me as a person. I did have one admitted error when I sorted the data in Excel but that only brought forth the information about the breaks I missed and that information was even more telling than anything I previously discussed. I thought maybe I was actually in an alternate universe as I could not understand why nobody else could see all the inconsistencies and funny business in this case and not point it out. I don't care if he used a bot and won or lost. I don't care if he gets paid or not. Hey I am happy to root for him to get paid. Just don't come on the forum and say "please help I have been robbed for no reason" and then the story unravels from there. I have no sympathy for someone like that. You would have won a lot more respect from me had you said that you didn't play totally as a human BUT your play was still within 5Dimes rules. You tried to do this after the fact which then created a ton of loss of credibility on your initial post.
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Thank you! Finally someone else who says all I have been trying to get across all along. I may have posted a lot to this thread but I did so only because I was attacked by a variety of parties including PM's asking me to stop posting (not by SBR) on this thread. All I was doing was pointing out more and more evidence of how this kept smelling worse and worse. Instead of anyone attacking my points or what I pointed out (I am still waiting for someone to explain the three exact 491.3 second and one 491.4 second breaks in one day) they attacked me as a person. I did have one admitted error when I sorted the data in Excel but that only brought forth the information about the breaks I missed and that information was even more telling than anything I previously discussed. I thought maybe I was actually in an alternate universe as I could not understand why nobody else could see all the inconsistencies and funny business in this case and not point it out. I don't care if he used a bot and won or lost. I don't care if he gets paid or not. Hey I am happy to root for him to get paid. Just don't come on the forum and say "please help I have been robbed for no reason" and then the story unravels from there. I have no sympathy for someone like that. You would have won a lot more respect from me had you said that you didn't play totally as a human BUT your play was still within 5Dimes rules. You tried to do this after the fact which then created a ton of loss of credibility on your initial post.Today is the tomorrow we worried about yesterday.Comment -
None of his story has unraveled though ( atleast not in this thread, maybe in some pm somewhere that we don't know about ).
He has been consistent in his declaration that he never used a bot. That is the only issue at hand. Can it be proven that he used a bot? That a few of his many breaks fall within a second of eachother is not evidence of it, so then we need to look at something else. As of this moment, no credible evidence has been proferred that he used a bot.Comment -
Today is the tomorrow we worried about yesterday.Comment -
I don't side with the player or with 5dimes but follow the thread and have hypothesis about the 491 seconds breaks, i wait for zabula if he has something to say about this, since i don't want to give him lifelines and use my theory in his defence.Comment -
They might be mad after looking at his play that he was treating it as a job. As any professional VP player will tell you, a casino treats you different if they believe you are playing to beat them ( with an edge over them ) and not just a random person who got lucky( or happened to sit down at a full pay game by accident ).
In las vegas, they take your players card away, 86 you from the casino, make you ineligible for future promotions, eliminate you from the mailing list etc etc etc etc.
You do not have to do anything wrong to be treated differently than other people that won on the same game, you need only be perceived as an advantage player by the casino.Comment -
No, three of them were EXACT (491.3 seconds) to the TENTH of a second and one was off by a TENTH only at 491.4.
For those of you eager for me to stop talking because I am just pointing things out as I see them and not blindly agreeing that Zabula did nothing wrong, I am going out to dinner and for the evening. I will answer any personal attacks this evening though. Would love to be able to respond to attacks on the case, inconsistencies, and evidence pointed out but nobody has so far done that.Today is the tomorrow we worried about yesterday.Comment -
Well I've looked at the first file as long as I can without too much of a headache and the only thing I find interesting is the breaks.
The first day they go 491.3/491.3/491.3/491.5/491.4/272.7/254.2/2hr 15 min.
The next day they go 264.4/500.5/500.3/500.2/500.3/ 4hr 12 min.
Maybe later I'll start at the next days
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Actually, if three breaks were in fact 491.3 seconds (and one 491.4), this pretty much does prove the use of a bot. To toss this off as a coincidence is to purposely ignore the evidence, or have a complete lack of understanding of math and probability. Any objective person should be able to see this.
Frankly, it doesn't matter to me if 5dimes pays this guy or not, heck I hope they do. But its pretty clear that a bot was used, so they shouldn't HAVE to pay.Comment -
Here is your answer...clowncarWell I've looked at the first file as long as I can without too much of a headache and the only thing I find interesting is the breaks.
The first day they go 491.3/491.3/491.3/491.5/491.4/272.7/254.2/2hr 15 min.
The next day they go 264.4/500.5/500.3/500.2/500.3/ 4hr 12 min.
Maybe later I'll start at the next daysComment -
Because his bot program isn't that good. Are you really serious or is Zabula cutting you in? Do you see his breaks: 491.3/491.3/491.3/491.5/491.4/500.5/500.3/500.2/500.3
Come on they are off by tenths of a second at best. That is 5 breaks of 491.3 to 491.5 and four breaks of 500.2-500.5. Do you know the statistical probability of being able to have 9 out of 12 breaks exact to almost the tenth of a second? I wish I could understand these people that don't see anything at all odd about this and just feel it is a coincidence. While I am at dinner because I am really signing off (hey I am hooked just like Zabula and his VP) take a stop watch and in 12 tries try to stop it 9 times on the same time and be off by no more than a tenth of a second. You might get it once or twice but even that is pretty good.Today is the tomorrow we worried about yesterday.Comment -
It increases suspicion for sure. There could be other reasons for it though, like scheduled breaks coupled with coincidence... but yes ... it definitely raises eyebrows especially in conjunction wtih the four consecutive 500.2-500.4 breaks the next day,.... if in fact these are all accurate accounts of the hand history. I had a hard time opening them and got impatient so i am relying on second hand information.Comment -
I also admit that I am cheering for the player regardless of whether a bot was used or not.Comment -
5dimes
5dimes is a crap site i would bet with them any way they there software sucks ass and your not the first complaint ive heard about them and tony the jackass thats runs it he ant worth 2 dead flies lolComment -
I want to see a video of someone playing this fast for this long. I'll waste some time out of my day to see how someone does it.Comment -
I hope bot writers take all this into consideration when writing version 2.0Comment -
I should get all my losses back from 5dimes because they used a computer program which assured that the advantage was in their favor.Comment -
It isn't hard. You should see pro VP players who play two machines at once in the casinos. They go for hours with no break and they actually have to both think ( the incredibly simplistic strategy of the game in question here coupled with some autoholding makes it uniquely fast really ) and turn their heads while doing it. This was a piece of cake for someone grinding out a living.Comment -
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The whole irony of this is the exposing. IMO it dosent matter how the online casino game was beat. Tony making the statement "people that dont use a bot lose" is the same as admitting "our online games are fixed."
So Tony has these fixed online casino games raking in hundreds of thousands of dollars yearly. One day someone comes along and stings his fixed casino game. Its actually great to witness something like this. Sad thing is people will continue to play the online games donating their money to these managers.
The thing that will be interesting to watch is how this will unfold in regards to SBR's rating of 5dimes. If SBR backs a operation that admits to having fixed online casino games where will people turn?
I actually had a dispute years ago with Intertops and I asked SBR to intervine. I was taken care of within 2 days by Intertops. My dispute was for $500 though. This situation is bad news. Trust if it was for a minimal amount SBR could side with the player quick. They could even pay the debt themselves letting Tony know they handled it and to keep the % checks rolling in.
Nobody is quick to pay out 14dimes. 5dimes aint paying out 14dimes. SBR is not paying out 14dimes.
End of storyComment -
Maybe 491 seconds is a lucky number for him. Maybe it was superstition, or maybe he was winning with that amount of break and figured that was the best way to beat the game. It really makes me mad, even if he was using a bot. Players usually have no chance to win in an online casino, Tony knows that. That's why if somebody happens to win he knows it must have been a bot.Comment -
Having started looking at the logs, the breaks are a definite anomaly. So far, I've got 491.3, 491.3, 491.3, 491.5 and 491.5.
On this evidence, I have to say I think this suggests a badly-programmed 'bot, assuming the logs are correct and have not been doctored by 5Dimes to make this case. Does the player have an explanation? The liklehood of these breaks being human is zero in my opinion.
They're still fundamentally at fault, and totally incompetent, for offering such an idiotic game, and the chat transcript demonstrates a deplorable attitude. They should not offer such wildly +EV games to encourage 'bot use, then bury a "no bot" rule in the terms. It's smacks of freerolling on the players. I'm also sure the player had no idea bots weren't allowed, otherwise why waste the time on a hiding to nothing?
Assuming I'm right and this demonstrates 'bot use, I think they should make good in some way on this.Comment -
Evidence is very strong a Bot was used, perhaps even conclusive (not sure). Other than speed of play, did the Bot give him an added advantage---No. How hard is Tony looking for players that used a Bot and lost? It's his own fault for offering such a lucrative game.Comment -
The longer you play the closer you get to the EV, whether that is negative or positive... unless the casino is cheating or the program is malfunctioning.Comment -
When Tony said that people who don't use bots lose at that game, I think what he meant was that only someone using a bot would be able to employ the proper strategy. This pretty much shows that he doesn't know jack shit about VP, because he clearly didn't realize the massive player edge nor the relatively simple optimal strategy (and the free websites which calculate the strategy for you). It doesn't mean he thinks a bot can overcome a -EV or rigged game. More likely, it means that:
1. his records show that most clowns who play the game play it so badly that they don't win
2. Tony doesn't know enough about VP to figure out the optimal strategy
3. Tony doesn't know enough about VP to determine the house edge (player edge in this case
)
I would not take that as an admission of cheating or wrongdoing on the part of 5Dimes. Also, it would be completely ridiculous for him to make that comment if he did indeed mean that the game was somehow rigged. He would never make such a comment. He clearly meant something else.Last edited by KGambler; 05-13-11, 05:42 PM.Comment
